Where's the goodwill?

[Defenestratus]

It's a short term vs. long term problem.

We all want GW to make money for their trouble, but I think we would prefer it if it felt like they were doing that by making the best decisions for the game, which would have the long term effect of creating a healthy community for the passtime, and making them money over many years. It feels - to us - like they are making decisions that benefit them in the short term but hurt the game - and our enjoyment of it - in the long term.

Couldn't have said it better.

We don't begrudge GW for profit-seeking. Its the ultimate reason why they're in business.

Its just that we see their actions and decisions as incredibly short-sighted, and even at odds with their customers who provide them the revenue for their profits.

We WANT to love GW. We're not asking them to switch their operation to a charity. We just don't want them to give us more reasons to buy from someone else.

[Eldar_Atog]

Until 6th edition came out, I stuck with just 40K for my wargaming. I didn't really pay attention to other wargames like hordes or warmachine. But a few months ago, I felt like getting out but GW was in a stupor on the couch. She had been drinking again and I knew she would be worthless till she sobered up. So I just went to a new gaming store that I had heard about to just chill and visit.

I was walking around when I felt someone bump into me. Turning around to apologize, I find Warmachine and her twin sister Hordes smiling at me. Before I can even get the words out, they ask me if I'm alone. At this point, I think back to GW back at the apartment. She probably still asleep or has thrown up and is waiting for me to come clean it up... So I tell the twins that I'm alone.

They invite me to join them and I start noticing how pretty they look. I'm a little tentative but they quickly make me feel completely at ease. They ask me why I'm alone and I admit that GW no longer seems to care about me. Most of the time, I'm nothing but a wallet with leg to her. I'm sure they could tell I was a little weak that night but I didn't care at that point. When they suggested a demo, I just.... couldn't tell them no.

[John Bower]

But its not £40-£50 for a game from EA or activision it's £40-£50 for half a game, and who knows how much to download the rest of it

And that my friend is what is even more disgusting. And it's what GW seem to be doing, BF4 is a good example of EA strategy (pay to win), GW is going down the same route by bringing in Super Heavies and other massively hard hitting stuff that frankly doesn't belong in a competitive (re: ordinary) game of 40k. In fact 40k is not meant to be competitive at all, and that is where the issue lies. People want to play it competitively, when GW have (if everybody hasn't forgotten what they told the Beastsofwar team once) said they could care less if some armies can't win for toffee.

[Arkhan Land]

Until 6th edition came out, I stuck with just 40K for my wargaming. I didn't really pay attention to other wargames like hordes or warmachine. But a few months ago, I felt like getting out but GW was in a stupor on the couch. She had been drinking again and I knew she would be worthless till she sobered up. So I just went to a new gaming store that I had heard about to just chill and visit.

I was walking around when I felt someone bump into me. Turning around to apologize, I find Warmachine and her twin sister Hordes smiling at me. Before I can even get the words out, they ask me if I'm alone. At this point, I think back to GW back at the apartment. She probably still asleep or has thrown up and is waiting for me to come clean it up... So I tell the twins that I'm alone.

They invite me to join them and I start noticing how pretty they look. I'm a little tentative but they quickly make me feel completely at ease. They ask me why I'm alone and I admit that GW no longer seems to care about me. Most of the time, I'm nothing but a wallet with leg to her. I'm sure they could tell I was a little weak that night but I didn't care at that point. When they suggested a demo, I just.... couldn't tell them no.

a rather intense metaphor...

but lets add to it:
the new younger ladies force you to go to places with fewer people who often view themselves as being above other tabletoppers, you always have to shell out for the newest things at these classy joints cause, quite frankly, they aint sellin nothing used (yet anyways)
you remember the old good days with GW when you could find an used retro piece strip it and then repaint it and she'de be totally satisfied.

Life moves on...

[DarkLink]

You got a thing against Warmahordes? That's nothing that GW hasn't done before.

Couldn't have said it better.

We don't begrudge GW for profit-seeking. Its the ultimate reason why they're in business.

Its just that we see their actions and decisions as incredibly short-sighted, and even at odds with their customers who provide them the revenue for their profits.

It is worth noting that a lot of business decisions look like nonsense from the outside, but when you actually have full information and know everything that's going on and you've crunched the numbers everything suddenly makes perfect sense. For example, it seems GW's recent strategy of price hikes was, in fact, paying off by keeping their profits up during a recession, and only just in the last few months have they hit a wall. They'll probably have to change strategies now, but it got them through a time that could have been a lot worse.

[Eldar_Atog]

a rather intense metaphor...

Every once in a while, all those college level writing courses want to be used

I have to agree that fewer people play but I've never seen an elitist attitude from the warmachine/hordes players. The ones I have met have been very welcoming of new people. They kinda have to be... or everyone would just ignore them.

To me, GW has the more elitist mind set. You rarely see them at geek conventions. In Memphis, we have a nice sized convention (Midsouthcon) and there will always be people doing demos of most of the other wargames. GW only has a presense every other year or so and I don't understand why. The US headquarters is in town and one of their training stores is less than 5 miles from the hotel. You would think they would have one employee come out and do some small demo games.

I did go to the Games day that was downtown this year and I wasn't really impressed. I loved seeing the golden demon submissions but that was the only highlight. It was like they moved the bunker downtown and brought in a forgeworld warehouse. It didn't feel like a gathering of like minded geeks that love their hobby... It just seemed like a giant money trap.

[DarkLink]

In my experience, warmahordes players have an infinitely better attitude regarding just about everything than 40k players do. Half the time 40k players are whining about how broken your fluffy thousand sons army is because you just beat them and that means they're broken. Haven't seen much of that in games outside of 40k, though.

[biffster666]

It is worth noting that a lot of business decisions look like nonsense from the outside, but when you actually have full information and know everything that's going on and you've crunched the numbers everything suddenly makes perfect sense.

Yup. P/L is fun! It's over the last six months, so you ask yourself what's occurred in the last six months with GW? Supposedly they are launching a whole new website that will include FW and BL. Streamlining their model production process between 'parent' and FW? Wasn't there a verdict handed down on some lawsuit recently? All of that costs $$$, LOTS of $$$. How did they outlook each item, as a onetime hit or over 'X' amount of months/years? And on and on! hehehe

Oh, and GW can't use Kickstarter. This is a huge advantage to the other guys, but it's not hard to plug that hole if you think about it for a bit. GW also has a corporate arm, the decision making process is VASTLY different from the other guys who can adjust to their customer on 'the fly' much faster. People seem to forget this IMO, but that's a different conversation hehe

[GravesDisease]

Look, I’m coming at this hobby from scale model building, primarily 1/48 and 1/32 scale aircraft (a mix of WWII and modern).

Welcome to the forums and thanks for the perspective

I know Tamiya are the big boys in fixed model kits, but would you say hold as much market share as GW does with Tabletop wargaming? If so, are they as maligned?

[satxbrian]

Welcome to the forums and thanks for the perspective

I know Tamiya are the big boys in fixed model kits, but would you say hold as much market share as GW does with Tabletop wargaming? If so, are they as maligned?

Thank you for the welcome!

You bring up a very good question. I have no idea who the industry leader is. It is a little different in the sense that there can (and are) multiple companies releasing the same type of kit. Revell, Kinetic, Hasegawa and Tamiya, for example, all have 1/48 F-16 kits. Plus there are companies that specialize in a certain genre. AFV Club focuses more on armor. Tamiya has kits in a few (ships, cars, planes, armor). Money wise, I would say Tamiya is near the top…but I’ve never really thought to look at financials. I would say “no”, I don’t feel they are as maligned as GW is.

I think in terms of innovation leader in the industry, the leader is Tamiya (IMHO). They don’t release a lot of kits, but when they do, it’s quite the event. Message boards buzz with excitement. With their new wave of kits, starting a few years ago with the 1/32 Zero and F-16, they changed the game. The Zero was their first “super” kit. High detail, high accuracy, and high price. They followed with the Spitfire, the Mustang and last year, the F4U Corsair. All just kept raising the bar. But as great as the Mustang kit is it had its fair share of critics…mainly about rivets on the wings.

I’ve stopped going to quite a few modeling forums because the tone is always so negative. I sit firmly in the camp of “if it looks like an “insert subject here”, it’s good enough for me. But there are voices out there that will point out every flaw, shape error, scale length error, color call out error in every kit that is released. I just got tired of reading it. And you know, if that is how you have “fun” in your hobby, that’s fine. But I just want to build. I go to forums to get inspiration, all that negativity was not inspiring. There is really only one site I go to anymore because the owner has the thought process of, “Just build the kit and have fun”.

We all have different expectations for our hobbies. But I try and keep in the perspective that this is just a hobby. I love the models for the Deff Dread and Killa Kans. But most of the time all I read is how broken they are with the rules (Again, I can’t say since I am still getting ready for my first game), I still bought a Dread, and had a blast building it and it was cheaper than the latest F-14 kit I want to get…and I get to play with it! After all, I never fly my model planes around when I put them on the shelf….

The buy in cost of the 40K hobby is expensive, but over the life of the model, the cost per hour is pretty small (again, IMHO). I’ve been at this for less than a year, but every time I work on one of my ork models, it always brings a smile to my face. That is worth the price of admission.

I hope that first post didn’t come across the wrong way. Tone is always hard to convey in text. I just wanted to get that out about price.

Back to the bench, the WAAAGH! won’t paint itself!

Brian