Where's the goodwill?

[YorkNecromancer]

So I love 40K. If you're here, on this site, you do too.

I love the models. I love the fluff. I love everything about them, from the excessively horrible Grimdarkery, to the stupid obsession with VALOUROUS HEROISM, to the fact that men in giant suits of space armour use this power to fight with swords as though this would in any way be a valid tactic in any war with fully automatic weaponry... almost everything about 40K fills me with happiness.

I hate Games Workshop and always have.

I am not alone in this. I know, because I've had a conversation with other fans of 40K, been on the internets and read what they had to say and seriously: we seem to REALLY ****ing hate GW. Like, the fans of Half-Life LOVE Valve. They love them more than anything. They want them to prosper and succeed. I don't know anyone who wishes a stronger emotion on GW than utter indifference.

What the hell is going on here?

Now, in my case, there's a number of factors, but I was wondering: what is it about GW, a small, niche company who have been successful against all the odds (selling model plastic soldiers? When there are Xboxes? How do they make any money at all?) They should be a beloved plucky underdog, and instead, I genuinely can't remember I time I haven't hated GW. I've always loved their products but hated them.

What's going on? Are we, as all fans of niche hobbies tend to be, unnecessarily critical? Are there things GW genuinely deserves our ire over? Is it just the extortionately, revoltingly high prices (now so high that our school games club can no longer get new starters to the hobby - the costs are literally too much for them)? Is it something about the character of the company? (The excessively litiginous nature? The active rejection of fan communities?)

What is it about GW that constantly and consistently makes them a company people just don't like?

[lattd]

They are the activision or EA of the model industry they have got too big and instead of making the fun interesting games they use to, they just rinse and repeat.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

I don't hate GW any more than I hate any big company. And compared to a whole bunch of companies out there, they're saints.

[evanger]

I'm sure this thread will open the floodgates!

I think, for me, there seem to be a couple of reasons:

1. The prices. It really is too much. Enough already. Most things, including the now defunct monthly magazine, are just outside the comfortable "impulse buy" range. Some things are well outside the "buy ever" range!

2. The vibe. I have White Dwarf magazines from the late '80s and the early '90s that had a ton of "character" to them. They were packed with articles, written by the game's creators. The games had an undeniable element of fun loving humor to them, tongue-in-cheek references, etc. It seemed very loose and casual. Now they seem distant, cold, and deliberately cut off from the fans.

3. The long periods between updates and/or the structure of a constantly evolving game. For most of the previous years (with the exception being this massive release rate in the last two years) it was easy to consider your favorite army unloved. With this many armies, split between the two systems, and a much slower release schedule, it was very hard to like. Many armies missed being updated for one (or MORE!) entire versions of the rules system! I wish we could land on a stable rules system and stay there awhile. A LONG while! Not likely for a publisher to want to do, but desirable in some ways. This one seems to have come to an end...we'll see if WHFB and 40k can both complete the cycle of Army Book/Codex updates before they make new editions of the game rules.

[Defenestratus]

I hear ya.

I love 40k. Love pretty much everything about it except the existence of Tau. I love the game, the rules, the models.

I *used* to love GW. I used to be a huge fan of theirs since they supplied me my fix. However after seeing them treat the owners (who happened to be my friends) of three separate LGStores as garbage, I had to finally see things for what they were. GW doesn't care about the hobby - they only care about the bottom line. Its hard for me to *hate* them because I realize that GW is a corporation beholden to shareholders and I can understand how some of their decisions look great on short term bi-annual statements - However I believe that GW as a corporation has lost sight of what made them a huge success initially. They've certainly become arrogant in actions and words. They don't seem to want to listen to their customer base, and they seem set on cutting costs in a way that is most detrimental to the community (closing/shrinking stores instead of getting rid of middle management).

For those reasons I've not felt compelled to defend the actions of GW in at least the last 2 years.

[Roma89q]

I hear ya.

I love 40k. Love pretty much everything about it except the existence of Tau. I love the game, the rules, the models.

I *used* to love GW. I used to be a huge fan of theirs since they supplied me my fix. However after seeing them treat the owners (who happened to be my friends) of three separate LGStores as garbage, I had to finally see things for what they were. GW doesn't care about the hobby - they only care about the bottom line. Its hard for me to *hate* them because I realize that GW is a corporation beholden to shareholders and I can understand how some of their decisions look great on short term bi-annual statements - However I believe that GW as a corporation has lost sight of what made them a huge success initially. They've certainly become arrogant in actions and words. They don't seem to want to listen to their customer base, and they seem set on cutting costs in a way that is most detrimental to the community (closing/shrinking stores instead of getting rid of middle management).

For those reasons I've not felt compelled to defend the actions of GW in at least the last 2 years.

My reasons are in line with what Defenestratus has mentioned. GW has become a company that once focused on the "character" and "vibe" of the hobby to just another large corporation with the main goal of cutting as much fat from their company to drive up profit margins. Unfortunately, this has had a huge negative impact on the hobby. For example, I have a friend who strictly will not purchase from online, but that wasn't a problem as we had 3 gamesworkshop stores within a reasonable driving distance (less than an hr), but now all 3 are closed. Why? to increase profits, but they lost a costumer(s) in the process. Heck, the brick and mortar stores were the very thing that introduced me to the game.

Also, this is the one thing that really perplexes me. GW keeps stating that they are a "models first, rules second" company. I don't get how they don't realize that balanced rules will drive additional model sales (yes there are a significant subgroup that purchases models for painting/fluff and don't play). They don't update models/ranges because "they don't sell well," but I think (just in my opinion) they don't sell well because the rules for them are not well thought out or/poor in the context of the game. Why, as a customer, would I drop $40+ dollars on a model with unbalanced rules that will ultimately be no fun to use within the game? I'm no power gamer (I play dark angels!), but I want some viability out of the models I use for the price we have to pay. In my mind, rules and models go hand in hand, not one before the other. Balancing the system would help a lot for me actually liking them.

[Sly]

We hate GW because they seem to be a model company with artists that really seem to care about the art involved in what they do, run by a bunch of corporate bean-counters who do not seem to care about the art involved in making a hobby. As for the rules, I'm not so sure that they're all too good at it, but they again seem like they're subservient to the bean-counters (let's eliminate a deployment option from Tyranids not for game balance, but because a competitor makes models for the spores). There was a time when, despite having bean-counters to count beans for them, it seemed as if the company was run by people who cared more about art and innovation and being good than about profits and cutting corners and being profitable. Ironically, of course, good and innovative art and rules would create better profits.

[DarkLink]

The fundamental problem GW has, I think, is that they fail to realize, or at least fail to act upon, the fact that their rules are the vehicle to sell their models. Instead, they treat their rules like a throwaway joke. I like the way Reecius from Frontline puts it. There are three pillars of a quality wargame, good minis, good rules, and a good community. 40k has, overall, the largest range and highest quality minis out there. Everyone plays 40k, so it's easy to find a game. But when it comes to rules? By GW's own admission, you have to be drunk to think that they're well written (oh, it's just a beer and pretzels game). And whenever someone says "hey, could we get a clarification on this rules issue", GW (and their apologists) reply with some combination of "just get drunk and you won't care", "stop whining", or just getting straight up ignored.

Compare that to most other wargames, where the actual game is treated as a means of drawing in customers and thus the company provides significant support for their rules, faqs, erratas, and community events. Not that GW hasn't tried it before, but they've always stumbled or shown such a detachment from their customers that they just plain don't get it right, and a lot of their events have failed as a result, so they just draw deeper into their shell.

[ElectricPaladin]

In my mind, the problem is threefold:

1) Monolithic Slowness: GW takes forever to respond to a problem. Armies like the Tau should not have been allowed to languish in a nigh-unplayable state for so long. In the Internet age, where a slapped-together book can be prepared for nothing more than the cost of recycled art and some of developer's time, there is absolutely no excuse for that sort of thing. GW should be on the constant lookout for unhappy fans and always be ready do what they can to return their favorite armies to playability.

Relatedly...

2) Customer Insensitivity: At this point in time, GW has developed a terrible record for listening to what we want. DarkLink said it best, so I'll refer you to his post. Overall, the problem is that GW seems to have decided that it is the arbiter of style and we must simply suck it up and buy what they offer. They don't realize that they have competition now - some of them incredibly sharp and fast-moving companies. They don't realize that this is an inverted relationship. We are the arbiters of style, they must be responsive to us.

3) Price Gouging: GW minis simply cost too much. The fun per dollar ratio is too low. If I have $30 burning a hole in my pocket, what am I going to buy? Let's see... I could buy a new squadron for my Firestorm Armada fleet. This is probably the only squadron of it's type that I need, and it will add a lot - possibly even an entirely transformative lot - to the way I play. I could buy a warjack/warbeast for my WarmaHordes army. This is a big, beautiful model which will be a lot of fun to paint and play, and will serve as a new focal point for my fun on the table. I could buy an entire new starter box for Malifaux, which will include a new master and several new minions, all of them compatible with the models I already own.

And if I wanted to spend that money on 40k/Fantasy? That's... a new HQ? Potentially useful, but most HQs don't really transform the way your army works. $30 isn't quite a vehicle - at least, none of the cool ones - and certainly not a squad box.

And then there's the way they price everything else. Codices for $50? Rulebooks for $70? These things just aren't fun. Nobody wants to spend that much of their hard-earned money on a book, at least not in the world of minis. If I wanted to spend that much money on a book, I'd go pick up a nice edition of my favorite fantasy trilogy or a beautiful coffee table book (perhaps with pictures of spaceships). When I drop money on wargaming, I want to get new models. Rulebooks are an unfortunate requirement. I understand it, and I'm willing to pay for them if I have to (though I do think that making free pdfs available as a teaser is a great idea...), but that freaking much? It's a pain in the butt. It's boring. Books just aren't fun, and it feels like I'm being robbed. It feels like my gorgeous models - what I got into this hobby for in the first place - are being held hostage for my willingness to cough up another $100 in various rulebooks.

[DarkLink]

Right. Compared to, say, Warmachine, where $30 can buy you a new Warcaster/Warlock, which will pretty much so completely transform how your army plays that you might as well have just bought a new army. Or Infinity, where your entire army is 5-10 models, and you can buy 3 guys for $30, so you're halfway to a brand new army right there.