Imperial Knight and Wraithknight

[ElectricPaladin]

So, it's come out in the latest White Dwarf that the wraithknight is supposed to be the Eldar knight, which Epic players will recognize as the Eldar equivalent of the knight titan from the Epic game. The question that I - a relatively inexperienced Eldar player and soon-to-be-owner of at least one Imperial knight - have is this:

Does this play out on the tabletop as well?

Here is the situation as I see it:

Imperial Knight
• Stats: WS 4, BS 4, S 10, I 4, 3 Attacks
• Defenses/Durability: 6 HP, AV 13/12/12 instead, ion shield (4++ in one direction, chosen at the start of the opponent's shooting) it's a walker so it always presents its front in melee, and it can't lose systems to damage.
• Mobility: 12'' Move, Move Through Cover
• Ranged Combat: one heavy stubber standard (4/6 36'' Heavy 3). Comes with a rapid fire battle cannon (8/3/72'' Ordnance 2, Large Blast) and a second heavy stubber or a thermal cannon (9/1/36'' Heavy 1, Large Blast, Melta).
• Melee Combat: Stomp!, D-Weapon
• Costs: 375 (battle cannon version) or 370 (thermal cannon version).

Wraithknight
• Stats: WS 4, BS 4, S 10, I 5, 4 Attacks
• Defenses/Durability: 6 Wounds, T 8, 3+ Armor, Ld 10 and Fearless
• Mobility: Jump Monstrous Creature subtype
• Ranged Offense: two heavy wraithcannons (10/2/36'' Assault 1, Distort) come standard; they can be traded in for either a ghostglaive (+1 Strength, AP 2, Master Crafted) or a suncannon (6/2/48'' Heavy 3, Blast) and a scattershield (5++ that can Blind nearby units). Can also add up to two of... a shuriken cannon (6/4/24'' Assault 3, Pinning, AP 2 with 6s to-wound), a scatter laser (6/6/48'', Heavy 4, can cause other ranged weapons to become twin-linked), or a starcannon (6/2/36'' Heavy 2).
• Melee Offense: 10/2 attacks in melee, can be upgraded with the ghostglaive
• Cost: 240 base, up to 320 with the most expensive upgrades

For my part...

This is some very interesting data, but overall I think that they are comparable. The wraithknight is more versatile because it has exponentially more options - more than ten possible configurations compared to the imperial knight's mere two - which makes it potentially more useful on the tabletop. In a knight vs. knight duel, I honestly don't know which horse I'd back. The imperial knight will make mincemeat of the wraithknight if it can close, but between its jump pack and potentially nasty anti-vehicle ranged weapons, I'm not convinced that the imperial knight will close... and even if it does, the wraithknight has better Initiative and could, potentially, kill the imperial knight before it gets to swing. I think that in a one-on-one duel it would come down to luck, and in a three-on-three brawl, it would come down to skill and target priority.

I'm curious to read the reactions of the rest of the community. We know now that there is intended to be parity between the wraithknight and the imperial knight - do you think that this is true? Are they comparable units?

[Patrick Boyle]

The problem come with just how much more effective Monstrous Creatures are than Walkers. If I'm not mistaken the Wraithknight isn't actually faster; being a super heavy walker the Knight can walk 12", while at the same time the Wraithknight moves 12" with it's Jump Pack. The problem being that it's still fast enough to play keepaway by staying just out of reach, which is where the Knight loses. Both of it's weapon options ignore the Wraithknight's armor, but the Battlecannon still only wounds on a 4, and the Melta on a 3, and you have to do that 6 times. If the wraithknight is lucky it only needs two shots to drop you even with 6HP as you lose D3 on a 6 damage table roll, but even if it's not lucky, it's still probably going to chip away at your faster.

That said these things in normal circumstances wouldn't be fighting in a vacuum like that, but being a vehicle at all is still a huge weakness for the Knight generally.

[GrauGeist]

Suppose we have the Knights each have equal points in Eldar Guardians or Dark Eldar Warriors fire at them.

OK, now, let's put each model in Assault with a a 2++ Model.

No? OK then.

[ElectricPaladin]

Suppose we have the Knights each have equal points in Eldar Guardians or Dark Eldar Warriors fire at them.

OK, now, let's put each model in Assault with a a 2++ Model.

No? OK then.

Can you clarify? Are you saying that neither of them is viable in a competitive environment that includes the kind of absurd defenses we are seeing these days? Or something else?

[Maskedaxe]

it has been decided. both knights must fight to the death. my money is on the wraithknight. although that may be because I am an Eldar. but I think the wraigthknights ability to move twice in a turn is a huge advantage. the imperial knight will never get close to use that shiny bike chain sword of his. the way I see it eldar wins in 3 - 4 turns if all dice rolls are in favor

[ElectricPaladin]

it has been decided. both knights must fight to the death. my money is on the wraithknight. although that may be because I am an Eldar. but I think the wraigthknights ability to move twice in a turn is a huge advantage. the imperial knight will never get close to use that shiny bike chain sword of his.

I'd do it a couple of ways:

1) Knight-on-knight duel on a 4'x4' table.
2) A team of Imperial knights versus a team of wraithknights on a 4'x6' table.
3) 1500 point game that must include three Imperial knights on one side and three wraithknights on the other. The rest of the list must be oriented around supporting the knight (so no just taking the broken-est list you can think of and winning on virtue of the knight's back-up dancers). The Imperial side can be any Imperial codex: Any flavor of Space Marine, Imperial Guard, Inquisition, Sisters of Battle... whatever. The Eldar side can include Dark Eldar allies, if you don't mind dividing your points, but remember - the list must be oriented around supporting the knight!

I'd love to read those battle reports.

[GrauGeist]

@EP - I'm simply illustrating that MCs and SH Walkers have different strengths and weaknesses vs the whining that MCs are better.

I think the Titan is fine, as is the Wraithknight. In a larger battle, the theoretical MC advantages of the WK are not that great. Especially if the Imperial player knows he's hunting WKs. The additional +36" range of the Titan's battlecannon is huge, and the Guard player can bubble wrap against that huge WK base.

But don't play 4' x 4' - that's a knife fight that guarantees the Eldar an advantage. Play GW standard 1500 pts, and note that those Knights are probably non-Scoring...

[Al Shut]

Play GW standard 1500 pts, and note that those Knights are probably non-Scoring...

They can form their own army, they must have some way to score.

[ElectricPaladin]

They can form their own army, they must have some way to score.

Not necessarily. Actually, I think it would be interesting to see an army that didn't have any way to score and had to rely on secondary objectives and preventing the opponent from scoring, rather than claiming objectives itself.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Just in case you missed it, we've known the Wraithknight is the successor to the Epic Eldar Knight since they were released; Jes said so in that WD's interview.