Betrayer and Mark of Calth

[Jmaximum]

These two books take place right after the battle of Calth (I forgot the title of the book that details when the Word Bearers attempt to destroy Calth).
They could almost be ready simultaneously, Betrayer is the tale of what happens next with the rest of the Word Bearers and World Eaters, and Mark of Calth is what happens with those 'less faitheful' sons of Lorgar that are left behind on Calth to continue fighting a losing battle.

Will have more later (gotta run to work), but both books have been amazing and quite revealing.

[Wolfshade]

The battle for Calth is in "Know No Fear"

[Katharon]

I'm confused...what's the point of this thread? Is this suppose to be a running commentary on the books? The order they come in? Or maybe the chain of events?

[Wolfshade]

I pressume that Jmaximum will be adding some illumination of what was found to be amazing and revealing after the break.

[DrLove42]

Betrayer is the best Heresy book ive read. The characterisation of Kharn and Argal Tal is great

[Jmaximum]

I really, truly enjoyed Betrayer, especially the interplay with Kharn and Argel Tal (although how Kharn can still not believe in the Warp after someone he calls 'brother' has been possessed, I don't know.)
I Like the tragic downward spiral of just about everyone: we know Kharn the Betrayer from 2nd Ed as a rage fueled champion of Khorne, but in the books so far he is the most level-headed Wolrd Eater we've ever met.
We all know Angron becomes a demon prince, and now we see how.
**************************SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS****************************************** ************************************************** ***


But, the betrayer name is getting worn thin: Fulgrim tries to betray Perturabo in Angel Exterminatus, and here Lorgar sort of betrays Angron into his full potential.



What happens at the end of Betrayer had me almost in tears, and has Erebus living up to his Grecian name. What I don't understand though, is why?
What I don't get about Argel Tal, though, is why he keeps beating himself up, or why he feels he has failed, and even though he has found a symbiosis with his possession, he seems almost faithless at times. And, it's been a while since I read the First Heretic, so I don't recall the significance of Cyrene to Argel Tal.

I am getting a little tired of the 'my daddy didn't love me so I became a stripper' rationale of the primarchs.
Perturabo turned traitor because he was under-appreciated.
Angron turns traitor because nobody loves him, and he was elevated to not dying in the dirt. However, I do get where Angron was coming from, that he saw himself as just a slave (really, he was Spartacus), and he was fighting against a corrupt system.


On to Mark of Calth:

I think I need a refresh on who/what M'Kar is, and is it the ascended form of Maloq Kartho.
'Unmarked', a story with Oll Persson is just awesome, and has made me want to read more of this loosely Christianity-based storyline.

[Jmaximum]

For some reason the forum double-posted my reply. Manually deleting it.

[Gwhizz84]

M'kar is the daemon prince M'kar the Reborn, calgar fights him on Calth and sticks him in the star fortress Indomitable but tells everyone he's destroyed him.. Honsou (iron warrior warsmith) frees him in one of the iron warrior/ultramarine books by graham mcneill. And yes afaik he's Maloq Kartho as a daemon prince.

[Katharon]

What I don't get about Argel Tal, though, is why he keeps beating himself up, or why he feels he has failed, and even though he has found a symbiosis with his possession, he seems almost faithless at times. And, it's been a while since I read the First Heretic, so I don't recall the significance of Cyrene to Argel Tal.

One of the defining characteristics of Space Marines is that they don't deal well with failure. They are suppose to be (and are) super human and beyond the failings of mortal men. As such, when they fall or fail, they do so in a much grander fashion than normal men and women. Cyrene is, you could say, Argel Tal's albatross.

Cryene was one of the few individuals saved from Monarchia when the Ultramarines destroyed it on the Emperor's orders. Her survival, and loss of her sight, turned her into a sort of lucky charm and a reminder to the Word Bearers. She was a living survivor and example of what they had failed in the eyes of the Emperor. Since they are quite easily swayed into devotional thought processes, she became a token. Word Bearers could speak to her freely, like modern men speaking to a Catholic priest for absolution. She would accept them without judgement, allowing them to purge their own doubts by expressing them to her. That kind of tool or ceremony cannot be underestimated for a fanatic.

Cyrene also became the closest confidant of Argel Tal. It might even be fair to say that the Space Marine was a little in love with the woman. Argel Tal decided that if he could protect anything ever again, then it would at least be Cyrene that he protected. It was one of the reasons why he had the Mechanicus Cybernetica engine left behind to act as her protector.

I am getting a little tired of the 'my daddy didn't love me so I became a stripper' rationale of the primarchs.
Perturabo turned traitor because he was under-appreciated.

Perturabo's reasons for betraying the Emperor are more complex than that. The foundation of his betrayal was indeed built upon the feelings of under-appreciation, becoming the guy that does the dirty work that no other Legion will take. Horus used that as the stepping stone to other emotions within Perturabo. When his homeword of Olympus rebelled, one of the first times any Primarch's homeworld had ever done so, the mere shame of it enflamed Perturabo.

How fit for leadership or responsibility could a Primarch be if his own homeworld rebelled against the Imperium? So Perturabo brought his Legion back to its home and the Iron Warriors did more than supress the rebellion. They murdered a whole world. Olympus was destroyed in all but name, its populace massacred before the bolts and blades and treads of the Iron Warriors. It was an act of such barbarity and slaughter than Perturabo could not bring himself to face the Emperor over it. He knew that the Emperor could never forgive him for slaughtering Olympus -- that he and his Legion would face censure at the very least, just as the Thousand Sons had been punished by the Space Wolves.

Horus took advantage of that sorrow and pain. He came to Perturabo as an understanding brother; giving him the forgiveness and absolution that Perturabo needed, though would not admit to needing. Two hundred or more years of being treated as the Legionnes Astartes cleaning boys, the irritation of never receiving their just recognition, and the shame of having perpetrated one of the worst crimes a Legion could perpetrate led the Iron Warriors along the path of perdition.

Angron turns traitor because nobody loves him, and he was elevated to not dying in the dirt. However, I do get where Angron was coming from, that he saw himself as just a slave (really, he was Spartacus), and he was fighting against a corrupt system.

Angron is more than that. His reasons for betraying the Emperor are probably one of the most "just" if you care to look at in one way. His reasons are certainly personal. The slave army that he had created, his companions that he called brother and sister, was the most dear thing to him in the universe. The Emperor, for reasons we do not know, chose to extricate Angron from the final last stand that his slave army would have made -- but did not make an effort to save the slaves themselves.

So the Emperor did the following, in Angron's eyes:

1) He took away Angron's choice of dying alongside his slave brothers and sisters.

2) He denied him the right to even witness their deaths or for them to understand that he had not abbandoned them.

3) Even though it would have been in his power to do so, the Emperor did not save those slaves that Angron called brothers and sisters.

4) The Emperor retained the highrider government that had enslaved Angron in the first place and left it to continue ruling over that world.

Those reasons, when Angron is not taken by the Nails, are why Angron hates the Emperor. The Butcher's Nails in his head only help to fuel that anguish and hatred to further heights. From any perspective of how the Horus Heresy could or would have gone, eventually Angron would have either died stupidly in combat due to the Nails taking his senses away from him or else the Emperor would have been forced to fully censure him as had been done twice before to two other legions.

[Jmaximum]

One of the defining characteristics of Space Marines is that they don't deal well with failure. They are suppose to be (and are) super human and beyond the failings of mortal men. As such, when they fall or fail, they do so in a much grander fashion than normal men and women. Cyrene is, you could say, Argel Tal's albatross.

Cryene was one of the few individuals saved from Monarchia when the Ultramarines destroyed it on the Emperor's orders. Her survival, and loss of her sight, turned her into a sort of lucky charm and a reminder to the Word Bearers. She was a living survivor and example of what they had failed in the eyes of the Emperor. Since they are quite easily swayed into devotional thought processes, she became a token. Word Bearers could speak to her freely, like modern men speaking to a Catholic priest for absolution. She would accept them without judgement, allowing them to purge their own doubts by expressing them to her. That kind of tool or ceremony cannot be underestimated for a fanatic.

Cyrene also became the closest confidant of Argel Tal. It might even be fair to say that the Space Marine was a little in love with the woman. Argel Tal decided that if he could protect anything ever again, then it would at least be Cyrene that he protected. It was one of the reasons why he had the Mechanicus Cybernetica engine left behind to act as her protector.



Perturabo's reasons for betraying the Emperor are more complex than that. The foundation of his betrayal was indeed built upon the feelings of under-appreciation, becoming the guy that does the dirty work that no other Legion will take. Horus used that as the stepping stone to other emotions within Perturabo. When his homeword of Olympus rebelled, one of the first times any Primarch's homeworld had ever done so, the mere shame of it enflamed Perturabo.

How fit for leadership or responsibility could a Primarch be if his own homeworld rebelled against the Imperium? So Perturabo brought his Legion back to its home and the Iron Warriors did more than supress the rebellion. They murdered a whole world. Olympus was destroyed in all but name, its populace massacred before the bolts and blades and treads of the Iron Warriors. It was an act of such barbarity and slaughter than Perturabo could not bring himself to face the Emperor over it. He knew that the Emperor could never forgive him for slaughtering Olympus -- that he and his Legion would face censure at the very least, just as the Thousand Sons had been punished by the Space Wolves.

Horus took advantage of that sorrow and pain. He came to Perturabo as an understanding brother; giving him the forgiveness and absolution that Perturabo needed, though would not admit to needing. Two hundred or more years of being treated as the Legionnes Astartes cleaning boys, the irritation of never receiving their just recognition, and the shame of having perpetrated one of the worst crimes a Legion could perpetrate led the Iron Warriors along the path of perdition.



Angron is more than that. His reasons for betraying the Emperor are probably one of the most "just" if you care to look at in one way. His reasons are certainly personal. The slave army that he had created, his companions that he called brother and sister, was the most dear thing to him in the universe. The Emperor, for reasons we do not know, chose to extricate Angron from the final last stand that his slave army would have made -- but did not make an effort to save the slaves themselves.

So the Emperor did the following, in Angron's eyes:

1) He took away Angron's choice of dying alongside his slave brothers and sisters.

2) He denied him the right to even witness their deaths or for them to understand that he had not abbandoned them.

3) Even though it would have been in his power to do so, the Emperor did not save those slaves that Angron called brothers and sisters.

4) The Emperor retained the highrider government that had enslaved Angron in the first place and left it to continue ruling over that world.

Those reasons, when Angron is not taken by the Nails, are why Angron hates the Emperor. The Butcher's Nails in his head only help to fuel that anguish and hatred to further heights. From any perspective of how the Horus Heresy could or would have gone, eventually Angron would have either died stupidly in combat due to the Nails taking his senses away from him or else the Emperor would have been forced to fully censure him as had been done twice before to two other legions.

For the most part, I was just being petulant with my reasoning for Angron and Perturabo in my original post (I was in a rush that day). In truth, I find them both very sympathetic characters, especially Angron, after reading Betrayer. I did not know Perturabo massacred his homeworld, I thought Night Haunter was the only one to have his homeworld fall back into its old ways. Or did Curze do that as his initial act of rebellion against the Emperor? I don't recall.
What you said about Cyrene definitely sparked some memories and solidified her place for me. The question now is: where did she go with John Grammaticus?

And I understand the primarchs rebelling, but I don't follow why the human crews of their ships would. The commander of the Conqueror seems to be very level headed, so why wouldnt she break away from the world eaters and side with the ultramarines? And for that matter, First Legion master Lhorke the Contemptor. There was a moment there in Betrayer when he was questioning why they were fighting Ultramarines.

I would love to see some stories of the Primarchs before they were found by the Emperor (we do get snippets into their various pasts, but I would like to see more of how they developed) and especially the legions before they were reunited with their gene-sires.