New Helbrutes and Crimson Slaughter Codex

[YourSwordisMine]

This is the first I've seen that lists it as Codex Crimson Slaughter. Werent the supplements all?

"Iyanden: A Codex Supplement"
"Farsight Enclaves: A Codex Supplement"
"Black Legion: A Codex Supplement"

The only one I've seen lately has been Codex: Imperial Knights, and it has its own entry in the Armies section on the 40k GW page. If Crimson Slaughter get their own entry as well, then its a full codex. If it just appears under the Army Essentials like the other supplements then we'll know for sure which is which.

[Charon]

Dont know what they where named in the past... I go with the price tag and its the same for black Legion and crimson slaughter unlike the codex imperial knights which is a little more expensive.

[Katharon]

People hear a snippet, make a snap decision get angry, and people wonder why GW do not do open testing and have closed down the rumour mill quite significantly...

No, that's ignorant and flippant. Any company with the sack to make it knows it won't please everyone. GW just decided that it didn't want to face ANY criticism that it wasn't prepared for and cut off all ties -- dumb as **** of them to do, but they did it.

[firestorm]

Such is the effect of Chaos in 40k that any discussion of it causes fall out, and there is inevitable fall out from that fall out

Take these comments, typical reaction to Chaos players 'whining':

I can feel the whining from here.....

If we insist on playing with toys I guess we should expect to be surrounded by children.

just pointing out that it is idiotic to complain about getting new releases to play with.

Now, before people who don't play Chaos Marines are quick to fob off complaints about new releases, here's a scenario I'd like them to consider for a moment:

Imagine that what you really, REALLY want above all else is a holiday to, let's say, Cancun (as a randomly picked example). You've been wanting this for, say, 7 years now. And on a regular basis, you've been stating this fact quite clearly to your family/friends/significant other/whoever is the one to facilitate this.

Now, imagine that, on no less than 3 occasions to date, your family/friends/significant other/whoever is the one to facilitate the holiday has come to you and said 'Okay, I know you're really wanting a holiday - so I've booked as a trip to Anchorage/Montreal/Vermont/anyplace which is as far removed from where you're actually wanting to go on vacation as possible'! Yes, you'd be a bit disappointed, wouldn't you?

Then, you get wind that your family/friends/significant other/whoever is the one to facilitate the vacation are planning another trip - and you pick up suggestions that, yes this time they have finally LISTENED and PAID ATTENTION to what you ACTUALLY WANT, and are planning that vacation to Cancun!

But then - lo and behold - the new vacation is announced, and again, it's not Cancun, it's nowhere that's anything like Cancun, again it's somewhere that's the opposite to it - not warm and sunny, but cold and icy.

So if that was you, let down all those times before despite having made your express wishes very clear, you'd be forgiven for complaining about it, wouldn't you?


Quite obviously, this scenario relates to Chaos Marine players - what the overwhelming majority of us have been saying for the last few years is that we want rules to represent the Chaos Legions as they now exist in 40k, and we want them to not only play like they truly capture the feel of that, we want them to be effective in games (so we're not just reliant on Heldrake-Cultist spam anymore).

Now, there is NO WAY that the GW design team can say they don't know about this desire - I attended Games Day in 2011 and 2012, and spoke to Jervis, Mat Ward and Phil Kelly and stated this fact to them. *In fact I spoke to Phil Kelly when the current Chaos 'dex had just been announced, and we talked about representing Legions, and he pretty much said he had written it with players being able to field forces representing the Legions in mind (Sadly Phil, it didn't live up to your intentions...).

So it's not like GW doesn't GET what Chaos players are wanting for their army. It's just... I don't know if they're ignoring it, or have some misguided idea about what is better for Chaos Marines in 40k they're working towards.

Now, I should make it clear that, although I'm a Chaos Marine player, my army isn't a Legion one, so it's not like I'm wanting Legion rules for my army - but having played through two average and no better Chaos Codices since 2007, I can totally appreciate why the vast majority of Chaos players want these Legion rules.

At the same time, yay for a new Chaos model, but it's a shame it's for a unit which isn't as good as it could be... I'm waiting for the rumoured Plastic Obliterators with more anticipation than the Helbrute...

[Katharon]

We also need to all remember that Codex: Chaos Space Marines was the 1st sixth edition codex to be released...

[Dimitrios]

I'm glad that the CSM community get a few new toys to play with... the hellbrute is a wonderful model and it typifies the way that GW is taking the chaos range. HOWEVER, I truely wish that GW would make their mind up with their strategy for releasing new armies.

At first we had suppliments, then after 3 months they got twitchy and started SPAMMING Christmas data slates flooding the market. A few months later on and we are now seeing an explosion in new fully fledged Codex in lue of suppliments, all the while existing codex suppliments still do not have their hardback editions published. Make your minds up GW... this is highlighting the turbulent and skitish management that is plaguing our hobby of late. Pick a strategy, communicate it and then stick to it; it is good old fashioned change management.

GW cannot expect for people to keep up with their frantic swings in direction equally it makes them look unorganised and amateurish.

[bfmusashi]

No, that's ignorant and flippant. Any company with the sack to make it knows it won't please everyone. GW just decided that it didn't want to face ANY criticism that it wasn't prepared for and cut off all ties -- dumb as **** of them to do, but they did it.

And this is sagacious? Have you spent a lot of time in meetings with GW? Surely you aren't filtering snippets you gleaned off the internet through your own biased filter of how things should be and presenting it as fact. I mean, to belittle someone because they have access to the same limited information you do but came to a different conclusion would mean... holy crap Wolfshade was right! Open testing would only promote this nonsense as the internet devolves further into the quagmire of "I'm right because I said so and you're an idiot for disagreeing with me."

[jonsgot]

The problem we face is GW will fund the books that sell models. Creating a books witch make people's existing armies better and therefore not needing new stuff in their mind may not be a good idea.
I think this is wrong, I think I buy more for the armies I'm happy with not the ones that have been stuffed like a turkey at Thanksgiving. That said I don't have access to their sale data.

[Mr Mystery]

And this is sagacious? Have you spent a lot of time in meetings with GW? Surely you aren't filtering snippets you gleaned off the internet through your own biased filter of how things should be and presenting it as fact. I mean, to belittle someone because they have access to the same limited information you do but came to a different conclusion would mean... holy crap Wolfshade was right! Open testing would only promote this nonsense as the internet devolves further into the quagmire of "I'm right because I said so and you're an idiot for disagreeing with me."

Not to mention the usual 'Rock fine, Scissors overpowered, Sincerely, Paper' type feedback.

[SaveModifier]

Such is the effect of Chaos in 40k that any discussion of it causes fall out, and there is inevitable fall out from that fall out

Take these comments, typical reaction to Chaos players 'whining':





Now, before people who don't play Chaos Marines are quick to fob off complaints about new releases, here's a scenario I'd like them to consider for a moment:

Imagine that what you really, REALLY want above all else is a holiday to, let's say, Cancun (as a randomly picked example). You've been wanting this for, say, 7 years now. And on a regular basis, you've been stating this fact quite clearly to your family/friends/significant other/whoever is the one to facilitate this.

Now, imagine that, on no less than 3 occasions to date, your family/friends/significant other/whoever is the one to facilitate the holiday has come to you and said 'Okay, I know you're really wanting a holiday - so I've booked as a trip to Anchorage/Montreal/Vermont/anyplace which is as far removed from where you're actually wanting to go on vacation as possible'! Yes, you'd be a bit disappointed, wouldn't you?

Then, you get wind that your family/friends/significant other/whoever is the one to facilitate the vacation are planning another trip - and you pick up suggestions that, yes this time they have finally LISTENED and PAID ATTENTION to what you ACTUALLY WANT, and are planning that vacation to Cancun!

But then - lo and behold - the new vacation is announced, and again, it's not Cancun, it's nowhere that's anything like Cancun, again it's somewhere that's the opposite to it - not warm and sunny, but cold and icy.

So if that was you, let down all those times before despite having made your express wishes very clear, you'd be forgiven for complaining about it, wouldn't you?


Quite obviously, this scenario relates to Chaos Marine players - what the overwhelming majority of us have been saying for the last few years is that we want rules to represent the Chaos Legions as they now exist in 40k, and we want them to not only play like they truly capture the feel of that, we want them to be effective in games (so we're not just reliant on Heldrake-Cultist spam anymore).

Now, there is NO WAY that the GW design team can say they don't know about this desire - I attended Games Day in 2011 and 2012, and spoke to Jervis, Mat Ward and Phil Kelly and stated this fact to them. *In fact I spoke to Phil Kelly when the current Chaos 'dex had just been announced, and we talked about representing Legions, and he pretty much said he had written it with players being able to field forces representing the Legions in mind (Sadly Phil, it didn't live up to your intentions...).

So it's not like GW doesn't GET what Chaos players are wanting for their army. It's just... I don't know if they're ignoring it, or have some misguided idea about what is better for Chaos Marines in 40k they're working towards.

Now, I should make it clear that, although I'm a Chaos Marine player, my army isn't a Legion one, so it's not like I'm wanting Legion rules for my army - but having played through two average and no better Chaos Codices since 2007, I can totally appreciate why the vast majority of Chaos players want these Legion rules.

At the same time, yay for a new Chaos model, but it's a shame it's for a unit which isn't as good as it could be... I'm waiting for the rumoured Plastic Obliterators with more anticipation than the Helbrute...

This is a really ****ing terrible analogy

You're complaining that they way they've written the army, and the way its always played, its quite how you imagined it in your head, so GW are bad because of it?

It CAN represent the Legions as a whole warband, or one legion, or a renegade war band, or a mono god warband, with allies anything you want can be made, but you're complaining because the particular army you want to make and play isn't super powerful.