Chaos V Loyalist, Supply V Demand, and a discussion thereof.

[Mr Mystery]

Evening all.

So this is something I want to discuss with the community at large. And it stems from a common complaint amongst Chaos Space Marine players, namely that they just don't have the same spangly toys their non-heretical brothers get to play with.

From the outset, I shall lay my personal bias clear - I feel that this is the correct state of affairs. As such, please do not consider my following rationale to be unbiased. If you disagree, then join in.

To kick off, let's start at the beginning (always an appropriate place).....

A Space Marine Chapter is considerably more than just 1,000ish genhanced combat nutters in really hard armour with lots of dakka. It's also it's base of operations, and untold Chapter Serfs, Servitors, and in some cases entire worlds of potential recruits. Other Chapters, most notably the Ultramarines are responsible for entire systems.

They are also involved with (in wildly varying degrees) the Adeptus Mechanicus, PDFs, The Inquisition etc, which we can probably very roughly lump together under 'the rest of the Imperium'. These links provide raw materials, recruits, ammo, food, drink, fuel, Serfs and Emperor knows what else in the way of support.

In short, they are independent in action, but very much part of the extended web of the Imperium. And it's this web of co-support that allows them to continue to function, including repairs, replacement war materials etc.


So, very rough outlining of how any given Chapter fits into the larger Imperium.

Then of course, we have renegades of varying stripes. I'll begin with the Traitor Legions.

Well, what were they? Bloody enormous is the first port of call. The FW HH books make that abundantly clear. They were so numerous, and so well equipped they fought their wars in a style more commonly seen with the Imperial Guard.

And they went Heretic.

And they took horrendous losses. From the outset of Istvaan, past their defeat at Terra, to the scourging that followed, their cohesive strengths were shattered. Not only in (super)man power, but also their War Machines. During their flight into the Eye of Terror, they were harried all the way, preventing any chances for concentrated repair efforts.

Now, when faced with an ongoing, fighting retreat, what makes the most sense? Salvage and repair the most shootykillbang stuff, or putting your resources into maintaining the easier, more robust stuff? Like Land Raiders and common Rhino variants? After all, you could spend (numbers out my bottom here, for lack of decent reference) three days repairing that Land Speeder's anti-grav unit, or three days patching up three Rhinos? Which is more critical to keeping your forces fighting?

Then comes the aftermath. The Legions dissolved (barring the Thousand Sons, but then they had much bigger issues), fought amongst their own Legion and each other, adding to their losses, and removing what little formal organisation would have survived. They didn't exactly have time to nip back to their Home Worlds to empty out their armouries either.

All in all, not the fearsome fighting forces they once were. Suitable recruits are likely difficult to come by if they are concerned with avoiding geneseed degeneration (they may not be, to my memory, exactly how CSM recruit new members, outside of fresh renegades is fairly unclear). As for replacement weapons, vehicles and ammo? They no doubt have some capacity within the Warband, but likely nothing too fancy. The real armourers are the Dark Mechanicus, who have their price. Again, expediency comes to the fore here. Do you cough up to have a couple of Land Speeders patched up, or use the same currency (slaves and that I'd imagine) to get your Land Raider repaired, along with a Predator or two, on account they're more robust, and overall a lot easier to repair?

And now, now for recent Renegades.

For the most part, it's apparently fairly rare that an entire Chapter goes rogue. More common for such things to happen at individual, squad or company level. Whilst there are the odd exception (oh hi, Astral Claws and Chums!), this means renegade Space Marines head off without any kind of established supply routes or logistical support. They'll have a ship, probably a Strike Cruiser, occasionally a Battle Barge, but not the entirety of their Chapter's armoury.

And where do they go? Well, wherever they want I guess. That's a huge part of going rogue isn't it? Freedom of choice. Yet sooner or later, they'll need resupply. Stuff taken in battle is all well and good, but doesn't provide safe harbour or repairs, just materials and ammo etc. One alternative would be to plunge into the Eye of Terror or the Maelstrom, seeking fellow renegades. Except, those fellow renegades aren't exactly shy about just taking all your cool stuff.

The stuff they took with them? Should have some kind of repair capability on board their ships, but again, like the Traitor Legions before them, there's genuine choices to be made. Do you continually maintain stuff even the Ad Mech don't really understand all that well (anti-grav plating, for instance), or that which by it's nature wears out quickly (Assault Cannon. Massive ammo requirement, fresh set of barrels after each engagements, constant maintenance of the motor assembly), or do you instead choose to focus on your more robust bits of equipment, things which can be readily scavenged following any strike against Imperial forces?

As for ATSKNF? Well, that's all well and good, when you're still 'benefiting' from your psycho-indoctrination. But once you've gone rogue, you've broken your indoctrination. Where once, like a good little Marine, you put The Imperium of Man before yourself, and would readily give your life if it meant victory over Witch/Heretic/Xenos (delete as applicable). But now....it's one for me, and me for myself. Suddenly, you're back to the average human viewpoint of 'sod dying for you matey, I'm offski'. In short, CSM are not as stupid as Loyalist Marines. Their greater independence of thought brings with it a heightened concern for self preservation. What's the point in a glorious last stand if it doesn't achieve anything? Where is the point in victory if you're not around to share in the spoils of war?

In short?

CSM, whether Legionnaires or Brother Baz running off to join the Creepy Circus on his own are very different from Loyalist Marines by their very nature. They don't have the same resources, so maintain different equipment. They've broken their 'Imperial Conditioning', gaining self motivation. The two forces cannot be readily compared in the majority of situation.

Yes, some cases are very different, such as the aforementioned Astral Claws. The Astral Claws should have some kind of mix of chaos and imperial armoury, to represent their more cohesive organisation (Tyrants list from FW is pretty cool!). But the majority? It's a simple matter of expediency. CSM don't have the luxury of stable supply routes and agreements their loyalist brothers do, and would, logically, maintain only that which they absolutely need.

Right, that's my tuppence worth, now over to you. As ever, if you disagree, pipe up. This is a discussion, not a lecture

[Charon]

In my opinion this varies from Legion to Legion or Warband to Warband.
Most of the big Legions maintain their own small scale "Imperium" including Forge Worlds. If they didnt not having suff to fix assaultcannons would be the least of their problems.
Titans and Spaceships need even more maintainance and obviously they have the resources to fix them too.

On the other hand. How do Chaos Space Marines even invade a planet? They may not use Thunderhawks. There are no Transport Flyers in the Codex, they obviously have no drop pods and they dont seem to travel through the warp as there are only a few units who are shock troops. They pretty much have to WALK from their Planetkiller Starship in Orbit to the combat site.

But jokes aside.
Not having the same stuff or the same rules is no issue (and even then you still could have the fiendish cannon of pure warp lightning which happens to have the same stats as a assault cannon, or the possessed bumblebee of tzeentch which happens to be a landspeeder). Having fewer options, generally worse gear and worse rules for the same or even more points is an issue.

We can twist and turn the fluff all day. There are BENEFITS of beeing a renegade too. The dark mechanicum for example is not resticted by any moral or religious dogma. They can experiment with infinite energy, AI, daemons,.. all day. And all they achieve is... impressive looking crap?
If self preservance plays any role in the "free" CSM mindset why do they all have a deathwhish and issuing/accepting challenges from Wraithlords and Hive Tyrants?
Where is the point in becoming a dreaded daemon prince if this creepy thing is actually far weaker than the Chaos Lord was before?

I LOVE fluff. But fluff was and is seperate from rules. There is no rule stopping you from using Eldrad Ulthran as the leader of your Alaitoc ranger army. But there is a rule that stops you from using Drop pods as a CSM.

[Denzark]

Not all Chaos Marines (Traitors or renegades) go into the eye. Some of them clart around the imperium's back waters, carving out territory, looting worlds, acting like gods etc. If you think of the Gaunt's Ghosts description of worlds under chaos, he tries to hint at Chaos society - esp in 'The Traitor General' or whatever it is called.

I point this out because there is absolutely no reason why looting, mechanicum slaves, etc could not keep a formation up to speed with their weapons and equipment. So I disagree there. Particularly given Mechanicum - Trebor Mint was sending all the Gucci new kit, which included up to Mk VI, to the Horus legions. As the Eye of Terror warps time, it could all be brand harry-spankers.

As to ATSKNF, good point, I had never considered the effect of a loss of psycho-chemical-indoctrination combined with the Chaplain. However I don't think VoTLW is sufficient to represent someone who has been fighting for 10000 years and knows a few tricks, and is sublimely unfrightened by almost anything that isn't Kharn or Abaddon.

[Kazzigum]

I agree with most of what Mystery is saying. There are no more legions, just warbands. I think this should be embraced by Chaos players, particularly those who favor the supposedly undivided former legions. For example, Alpha Legion may well have originally decided to go their own way, traffic with xenos, reject the Chaos gods and basically decide they they can manipulate everyone else to serve the greater good. Perhaps that was their intent during the Hersey. However, their so secretive, they don't even tell each other everything, with hints that even Alpharius and Omicron withhold info from each other. And that was 10,000 years ago. Despite the background that they did not flee to the Eye of Terror, many of their bases must be in similar warp storms and they must seek out such places for resupply and recruitment as well, at least sometimes. The point is, despite the fact that they believed they were doing the greater good, the Alpha Legion were always being manipulated (likely by Tzeentch), even when they thought they had outwitted the manipulators. By betraying the Imperium, even with supposedly noble purpose, they stepped upon the road to damnation. And 10,000 years of walking that path has surely brought corruption, so despite the fact that many Alpha Legion players seem to think they should be pure and coohesive, the background does not support this. They are as likely to be marked by the Chaos powers as any other former legion. One does not need to worship the Chaos gods to be marked, one only needs to accept the offered power. Just look to the Thousand Sons. They do not worship Tzeentch, in fact most including Ahriman hate him/it. Tzeentch marks them anyway.

The same could be said of all the supposed undivided former legions. The Iron Legion and Night Wings don't worship the Chaos gods? So? They still accept the offered power, traffic with daemons, bind daemons to their war devices, etc. All the original traitor legions are damned and marked by the Chaos powers, it's just their hubris that allows some to believe otherwise.

I'm sure it would make Erebus smile ... if he still had a face.

[DWest]

I think we need to consider motive as well as means-- the traitor Marines, the truly lost and damned traitors, have been corrupted by the Warp pretty thoroughly. It's how they think now. So to my mind, from the sources I've read (mostly Codices, still working on rounding out the novels), the idea that Chaos doesn't have access to the full armory isn't as big a deal-- their mindset makes warp power (Daemon engines, sorcery, etc.) the go-to solution to problems rather than raw tech. Furthermore, paging through say, Imperial Armor 2, you read how few of these special vehicles the Imperium has left, when they have basically the whole of the Chapter's technical support dedicated to keeping them running. Most Chaos groups aren't going to have the kind of infrastructure that a typical Fortress-Monastary possesses (Abbadon's main Black Legion units? Probably. The band of blood-hungry psychos who follow Kharn so they at least know he isn't following *them*? Probably not.)

At this point, however, is where GW's incompetence in game design kicks in. There are a certain set of tools an army needs to do its job (broadly speaking offensive power, defensive countermeasures, improved delivery and board control). Because everything GW does operates on Rule of Cool first, and nothing else second, we have a somewhat coherent argument from the standpoint of the fluff as to why Chaos has what it has, but we don't have a coherent set of rules making those units do what needs to be done, and *that* is what I think drives most of the trouble; you have the traitor forces, whether from the original Heresy or a later fall, who were represented as a complete, functional army (in both rules and fluff) with everything they need to get the job done, but the moment they actually change books, they suddenly don't have a lot of that.

tl;dr- the current Codex: CSM doesn't contain a proper army in it, and people are wondering where that proper army disappeared to.

[Nabterayl]

I point this out because there is absolutely no reason why looting, mechanicum slaves, etc could not keep a formation up to speed with their weapons and equipment.

I think there's a big difference between looting and fief-building. Keeping a formation supplied when every action requires the expenditure of supplies does not seem like a sustainable plan, especially since space marines are deliberately geared against supply efficiency. Expending a bunch of supplies in a more or less one-time action to conquer a place seems more plausible to me. Looting no, except as a supplement in specific cases. Conquest yes.

As to ATSKNF, good point, I had never considered the effect of a loss of psycho-chemical-indoctrination combined with the Chaplain. However I don't think VoTLW is sufficient to represent someone who has been fighting for 10000 years and knows a few tricks, and is sublimely unfrightened by almost anything that isn't Kharn or Abaddon.

I definitely agree that ATSKNF represents space marine Stockholm Syndrome.

As for VoTLW, though ... I dunno. One thing I've never been clear on is just how many 10,000 year old marines there are. In the normal course of operations, 90% of a loyalist space marine chapter is KIA within a century or two. That's just part of the job. Now, I know that time flows at the speed of plot in the Eye, but ... there have been a thousand centuries since the Heresy, enough to kill several hundred thousand space marines per chapter. That's a lot of dead marines.

If traitor legionnaires collectively maintained something like the normal pace of operations for a loyalist marine chapter, then it seems a virtual certainty that almost all of them are dead, and most "veterans of the Long War" are in fact relative newcomers. If they maintain less than the normal pace of operations, then there may be more Heresy-vintage originals running around in the legions, but they haven't been subjected to the soul-crushing pace of high-intensity combat ops gives loyalists their edge, so we have a different legitimate reason to question just how hairy-arsed they should be.

Either way, I think the answer is "more hairy-arsed than a regular marine, but nothing like the actual veterans of the Heresy like Ahriman, Kharn, Typhus, or Abaddon." So VoTLW doesn't seem all that far off to me.

[cobra6]

Mr. Mystery, I must say 'well done'; I disagree with your premise, but your argument is well stated and compelling.

For my part, to echo the above posts, the breakdown is where the background meets the tabletop. Charon is correct that Chaos Marines, of all stripes, cost essentially the same as Loyalist Marines who do still retain all that "Imperial brainwashing"- and that brainwashing is nothing but beneficial on the tabletop, bar none period full stop. You are never, ever worse off having ATSKNF than having nothing - so Chaos Marines should cost considerably less. What the Chaos guys *do* have is their all-too-often self destructive challenge rule, which suicidally flies in the face of the very self-preservation instinct you rightly point out they would often have. Ironically, maybe Chaos should be able to truly, completely ignore challenges, just laughing at the heroic enemy blowhard while they kill away in a businesslike manner; if an enemy issues a challenge, the Chaos unit and any accompanying IC can ignore it for no penalty. THAT would be a tabletop benefit worthy of a points cost!

And the vehicles and wargear?

The 40K background hammers away again and again and again that the Imperium is a hidebound, moribund cesspool of stagnation, where "something new" is religious heresy worthy only of excruciating death. On the other hand, the forces of Chaos are utterly unimpeded by this rigid adherence to entropy (except Nurgle), and can conduct any mad scientist experiment they feel like.

And yet, every Imperial codex release produces new vehicles and weapons - not just new models that are retconned into the background, but new background about how newly developed vehicles and tech are being disseminated across Imperial forces! This flies in the face of the background, so what gives - other than selling new kits, of course? And on the other hand, the unfettered evil geniuses of the Dark Mechanicus can't even strap some any other weapon than a TL-lascannon on a Land Raider? No Khorne Berzerkers have 'suggested' they build a new variant that fits more than 10 dudes? And why would they say no to that request - they have no dogma to adhere to, UNLIKE the Imperial Mechanicus who seem to crank out new LR variants by the week. Why is the dogmatic Imperium flush with new gear, and the innovative forces of Chaos are the ones 'fossilized in amber' so to speak?

They can't maintain their old 'Speeders? Got it. Why can't they develop an assault vehicle Rhino variant? That'd be easy to build and maintain from a background standpoint, would be distinct from the Imperials from a rules standpoint, would sell a lot of models from a business standpoint, and would be *cool* from a modeling standpoint. So again, what gives?

And finally, as Charon astutely pointed out, exactly how do Chaos Marines get planetside from orbit..?

[daboarder]

Yeah sorry mystery, your whole thing reads as "my justification for chaos being ****ty marines"

And they took horrendous losses. From the outset of Istvaan, past their defeat at Terra, to the scourging that followed, their cohesive strengths were shattered. Not only in (super)man power, but also their War Machines. During their flight into the Eye of Terror, they were harried all the way, preventing any chances for concentrated repair efforts.

Everyone took tremendous loses, I mean Istvaan was a thing right?

Quote CSM codex:

The imperium was in tatters, and as the traitor legions retreated to the eye of terror......

Then comes the aftermath. The Legions dissolved (barring the Thousand Sons, but then they had much bigger issues), fought amongst their own Legion and each other, adding to their losses, and removing what little formal organisation would have survived. They didn't exactly have time to nip back to their Home Worlds to empty out their armouries either.

Done to death, while some of the legions split the majority of them retain their primarchs and still operate under unified leadership. Even the most shattered legion (world eaters at skalathrax) has been reforged by angron during crusade that resulted in the first war on Armageddon.

For the most part, it's apparently fairly rare that an entire Chapter goes rogue. More common for such things to happen at individual, squad or company level. Whilst there are the odd exception (oh hi, Astral Claws and Chums!), this means renegade Space Marines head off without any kind of established supply routes or logistical support. They'll have a ship, probably a Strike Cruiser, occasionally a Battle Barge, but not the entirety of their Chapter's armoury.

Again not entirely correct
Quote: CSM codex:

The traitor legions are not the only space marines to fall to chaos. Each millenium, dozens of disillusioned or power hungry chapters defect, just as horus did.

Also RE: the Abyssal Crusade. 30 chapters charge into the eye of terror, that doesn't go the way the imperium thought it would. Guess what comes out the other side?

Furthermore, there are examples of chapters that recruit from the worlds of the imperium or the eye of terror (re: blood gorgons)

All in all, not the fearsome fighting forces they once were. Suitable recruits are likely difficult to come by if they are concerned with avoiding geneseed degeneration (they may not be, to my memory, exactly how CSM recruit new members, outside of fresh renegades is fairly unclear). As for replacement weapons, vehicles and ammo? They no doubt have some capacity within the Warband, but likely nothing too fancy. The real armourers are the Dark Mechanicus, who have their price. Again, expediency comes to the fore here. Do you cough up to have a couple of Land Speeders patched up, or use the same currency (slaves and that I'd imagine) to get your Land Raider repaired, along with a Predator or two, on account they're more robust, and overall a lot easier to repair?

The stuff they took with them? Should have some kind of repair capability on board their ships, but again, like the Traitor Legions before them, there's genuine choices to be made.

Sorry but this is also inaccurate.

BRB

The Chaos Space Marines are a fearsome foe. They have a
Space Marine's abilities, along with his gear of war and, since
turning to the darker powers, many also now bear power l
mutations or gifts from their patron Chaos Gods, which aid
them in battle. They still carry the same weapons they bore
in their service to the Emperor, sometimes dating back 10,000
years and now washed over by the corrupting powers of the
Warp.

As for the hogwash about supply, there are numerous instances of daemoic forge worlds and the like in the background. Sure they may have to make pacts with the dark mechanicum or worse, but that doesn't mean they are poorly supplied, its no worse than teh pacts, agreements and oaths that exist between loyalist chapters and the various political factions within the imperium.

For further evidence RE: The Sabbat worlds, a vast well organized industry supporting a chaos warmachine. as in Chaos Industrial power that rivals that of the imperium, and thats only one example

As for ATSKNF? Well, that's all well and good, when you're still 'benefiting' from your psycho-indoctrination. But once you've gone rogue, you've broken your indoctrination. Where once, like a good little Marine, you put The Imperium of Man before yourself, and would readily give your life if it meant victory over Witch/Heretic/Xenos (delete as applicable). But now....it's one for me, and me for myself. Suddenly, you're back to the average human viewpoint of 'sod dying for you matey, I'm offski'. In short, CSM are not as stupid as Loyalist Marines. Their greater independence of thought brings with it a heightened concern for self preservation. What's the point in a glorious last stand if it doesn't achieve anything? Where is the point in victory if you're not around to share in the spoils of war?

This is probably the only part of what you've written that I agree with and is supported in the background. Of course just because they are not indoctrinated to Know no fear, doesn't mean that the way their morale is handled in game isn't a poor mechanic.

[Nabterayl]

On the other hand, the forces of Chaos are utterly unimpeded by this rigid adherence to entropy (except Nurgle), and can conduct any mad scientist experiment they feel like.

So ... I disagree with the idea that Mechanicus doctrine precludes the development of new tech. It never has - witness the example of the Immolator, for instance, which is a very old vehicle in real-world 40K terms. That's a perfect example of what it looks like when the Mechanicus invents something new.

But I also disagree with the idea that the Dark Mechanicum threw off their doctrine when they rejected the Emperor. The difference between the science that we are used to and the science that the Mechanicus does is not religion. The difference is the belief that knowledge is finite, and that in the distant past mankind had more of it (possibly all of it) than we have today. What reason do we have to believe that the Dark Mechanicum reject this basic tenet? Their split from the Mechanicus was based on a rejection of the Emperor as Omnissiah, not a rejection of the commonly held, incorrect beliefs about the Dark Age of Technology.

Whether you think the Emperor knows everything there is to know or not, if you still think that mankind basically discovered everything there was to know about 20,000 years ago, your science will progress along essentially the same lines as the Adeptus Mechanicus'. Except that it'll progress slower, because you have access to less Scripture to pore over, and crazier, because you're supplementing Scripture with visions of chaos.

And finally, as Charon astutely pointed out, exactly how do Chaos Marines get planetside from orbit..?

Same way as the Guard does, I expect.

[daboarder]

or in dread claws, drop pods, storm ravens, thunderhawks and warp magic.

I threw your post up on BnC Mystery, and some of the replies are pretty good.
They are usually more eloquent than I am.

In a way he is right, and in a way, oh so wrong. Chaos Space Marines are Chaos Space Marines. They are the mirror darkly. And especially with Daemon being their own Codex now, there should definitely be a mirroring of the two forces. And for a bit of this, we can see this mirroring.

Marines for Marines. Helbrutes for Dreadnoughts. Land Raider for Land Raider.

The "problem" comes in when this mirroring gets skewed. Loyalists get a fancy way to Deep Strike. Chaos does not. Loyalists get Chapter tactics and supplements. Chaos does not.

When it comes to certain things like assaualt cannons and other gear that the CSM would have logically taken with them, there is the common excuse "The Traitors and Renegades can't maintain whatever they take with them." Newsflash: there is an organization called "the Dark Mechanicum". Not to mention only the warp knows how many individual rogue hereteks, forgeworlds and breakaway machine cults. The lore is constantly filled with warbands striking deals with these organizations to secure services and resources. And yet, we see none of it. A common example was the kai gun. It was only produced by one forgeworld. Its existence in many armies was an example of this trading for technology. The Planetkiller. Scratch that, the Planetkillers are evidence that Chaos not only maintain its technology, but innovate and create new technology. And yet where is this in the Codex?

"Well what about A D-B's Night Lords? They had it rough." They were also an undersized warband who had a habit of pissing off influential people. They were afraid of going into the Eye before Crythe. Sometime before Blood Reaver, they had already pissed off Huron. And I doubt killing one of his Champions, stealing a ship from him and not to mention kidnapping from his own slave chattel probably hasn't helped the mood any. No :cuss they barely have any resources.

To me, a successful Chaos Space Marine Codex should allow for two things, the Traitor/Renegade Marines who associate with Chaos but have none of the boons(Talos and co, but with the option to be better equipped with contemporary gear) and then the Chaos Marines who fully revel in the warp ad the gifts it bestows.

If you want to play a run down warband, cool. Just don't take as many options. That does not mean there shouldn't be any options.

We don't have to have Drop Pods. Just give us a point-for-point equivalent. Warp portals are a thing. Put those in there. We don't have to have Storm Ravens. Just give us a daemonic flying transport. There is plenty of fluff. We don't need Chapter/Legion tactics. But we do have Raptor Cults and other examples of "specialized warfare" that should get represented, albeit with a Chaos twist. We don't need ATSKNF. But you know what? Some of us have lived in Hell/Hel/Tartaros/Sheol for 10,000 years*. We've seen things man.

We are The Mirror Darkly. That is all we ask for, to be the Mirror. Not the broken shard of glass that reflects part of your face and crumples in the breeze.

EDIT: I ain't saying we should be Marines with spikes. What I am saying is that we should be Chaos Marines.

It ignores the Dark Mechanicus for one.

If loyalist Marines have all their toys because the Mechanicus builds them for them (and trains their techmarines), then Chaos Marines have access to the Dark Mechanicus for the same.

Forge Worlds getting sucked into the warp and all that.

It's not like Chaos don't have Power/Terminators or Bolters... (I really don't get the whole TL-Bolter / Stormbolter evolution though)

Then there's Warp based technology to use and rely on when your supplies of Bolter shells grow thin. I don't think the Noise Marines care much about Bolter shells.

If Chapters can go Rogue, then so can Forge Worlds. Or bargains can be struck with Xeno scum, if you're no longer a blind servant of the Corpse God.

Hmm. Some of the arguments that guy makes doesn't really make sense.

Yes we retreated from terra, yes we were harrassed all the way. Yes we still have STC platforms from wich to construct vehicles with, yes we have the factories to make them in. Yes we have an abundance of slaves to repair and perform maintenance on them. Some don't need maintenace because they are daemonically possessed...

Imperium of man:
Marines
Mechanicus
Human serfs

Chaos:
Marines
Dark Mechanicus
Slaves, cultists & mutants
Daemons (including possessed machinery and such)


Contrary to common belief, there are planets in the eye. There are people living in the eye, yes they are mutants, barbarians and chaos worshippers, but they live there. They are slaves of course, under their astartes or daemon masters, and raiding parties out of the eye gather more and more slaves all the time because the attrition is rather high (sacrifices and such).

A loyalist space marine needs maintenance on his armour, a chaos space marine's armour grows to be a part of himself and repairs itself when needed with the blessings of the chaos gods. Sure, assault cannons and such are hard to maintain in the eye, but proven tech such as LR variants, drop pods and razorbacks, why would they be too difficult to maintain in the eye?

And an OLD OLD post from the mouth of A D-B himself.
One that shows evidence that Forgeworlds, pacts and supplies exist, and CSM's aren't just a bunch of decaying raiders. They build territory, empires and industry

For the sake of argument, let's say you're Helikaon the Mourner, a Word Bearer Chaplain in the Heresy. You're part of the command team, with Captain Vilus (maybe he has a personal title like Archon, Consul, Warleader, or whatever else), essentially co-leading the Company, within the Chapter, within the Host of several Chapters gathered together. Or just one Chapter. Or just half of several Chapters banded together for a few months, years, decades, or centuries. Maybe all of your Chapter/Company remnants form a Host for convenience, or because Lorgar ordered it, or you're part of the same Crusade Fleet, or you just owe each other bonds of absolute brotherhood. But let's focus on you, Vilus, and the Chapter of the Sacred Phoenix Unbound, named after one of the constellations above Colchis.

Maybe on the tabletop, you're a Chaos Lord, or a Dark Apostle, or something the rules don't have a place for, because they're merely the basic skeleton structure. Let's move on to what matters.

Time passes in the Eye of Terror, after the Sons of Horus lost you the war by running when their primarch fell. You spend a lot of that time fighting the Sons of Horus because they're weak, and getting weaker. You kill them and take their ships, their worlds, their fortresses, their equipment. You make deals with worlds settled by the Dark Mechanicum. Other times, you invade those worlds, for supplies. Other times, the Mechanicum breaks its oaths to you, screwing you over, because that particular forge, that particular leader, or that particular world had a better offer from a stronger warband. Or because they secretly hated you. Or because of reasons you never find out.

You raid the Imperium a lot, for vengeance, for supplies, for slaves, for territory, and to teach them the truth behind reality. Maybe you do it for the glory of the Dark Gods, to please them, or maybe you do it for yourself, to make life better, easier, or to humiliate a rival who lost a fight against that world or fleet in times past. Maybe you do it because there's pressure from several Aspiring Champions and squad leaders that are inciting the troops into believing you're weak, and should be removed from your position as co-leader. You need a show of strength. Soldiers need victories.

You make alliances with other warbands from other Legions, either to group together against a serious enemy, or because you share territory and genuinely consider yourself allies. You break some of those promises, because it suits you better to kill those former allies and take their land/resources/ships. You stick to some of the others for all time, because they're your Gods-damned brothers in arms, and you'd die for each other. Only, in 6,000 years of living in Hell; fighting daemons; and fighting the Imperium, you betray them because you learn they're about to launch a surprise attack on your stronghold, or your fleet. Only, maybe they weren't, and you were deceived by a third party. Or maybe they were, and they win, and you have to cut and run with half your resources and manpower squandered in a war you never saw coming. Much of the time, no matter what happens, you fight a lot of other warbands from other Legions. That's life in the Eye of Terror. For every alliance you make, there are half a dozen battles.

Sometimes, perhaps often, you come into contact with other Word Bearer Companies/Chapters/Hosts persecuting their own wars. Sometimes you join together, share news of the Legion's movements, and are the best of blood brothers. Other times, it isn't so simple. These Word Bearers worship a different cult and creed to you, and your beliefs aren't exactly gelling smoothly. There are as many cults and paths of Chaos faith as there are preachers and worshippers, and just as real world religions and branches of the same religion come into conflict, it happens with Chaos faithful, on a much, much, much larger and more frequent scale. Maybe they force aspects of Tzeentch worship you think makes them weak (maybe they use lore of the Change God to read the hearts of their enemies, which relies too much on Chaos rather than being strong on your own), and they think the way you see nobility in Khorne makes you deluded. They think you take one aspect of your faith too far, or not far enough. You think the same of them. You both have evidence of why the other warband is weak, because no group is ever without flaw. Maybe a tense negotiation between your leaders on neutral ground becomes a gunfight. Maybe your fleets meeting by accident becomes an all-out void war. Maybe you reconcile your differences in the name of the Word, and become brothers for 3,000 years, either answering each other's calls for aid, or even joining into a new Host, of two Chapters bonded by absolute loyalty. Maybe you become a new Host of a whole new Chapter, to reflect your new unity. Maybe that alliance lasts for a year. Maybe it lasts until the end of time.

Other times, other Word Bearer warbands call to you for aid. Sometimes you answer, because you're the same Legion, damn it, and that matters. But sometimes you don't answer, because if that Host gets butchered, you can move in and claim their territory and resources much easier. Other times, you answer their call for help because you owe them; they've saved you in the past. Other times, you don't answer because those guys are oathbreakers and heretics, dangerously disloyal - a nasty splinter faction - and you want them dead anyway. Other times, you want to aid them, but you don't make it in time, because the Warp's tides delay you; or because astropathy is near-strangers interpreting each other's vague dreams, and you miss the message in the nightmare of a million screaming children vomiting black sludge from their mouths while they're skinned alive by chanting monsters with liquid flesh made of pus and filth and liquified hate. Oh, that was a call for brotherhood by the Chapter of the Dark Maw? Not just one of the million nightmares you have, or the daemonic whisperings you hear all the time, because you live in Hell? Damn, Maybe you'll get it right next time.

Except maybe next time, the Host of the Dark Maw come and attack you for breaking an oath, and bring several other Word Bearer Hosts with them, who now despise you for breaking the loyalty of the Legion. They're loyal Word Bearers, but they see you as dangerously disloyal, a nasty splinter faction that needs to be destroyed.

Or maybe you interpret the message right, and are dying to come help your brothers, but the Dark Maw are fighting the Chapter of the Osseous Throne, and you owe both Chapters your allegiance, so the only honourable thing to do is sit the fight out. Or maybe you owe the Osseous Throne an actual oath of brotherhood from past campaigns, and can't take the Dark Maw's side. Maybe the Dark Maw are fighting a warband from another Legion - the Venemous Rune, of the Death Guard - who you've served with and allied with a dozen times. But you break your oath to your proven allies, because the Dark Maw are Word Bearers, and the Venomous Rune are not your Legion. It doesn't matter because Legions mean everything, and your loyalty is to your bloodline, knowing it will never fail you. Or maybe it does matter, this time. Maybe you take the field against a warband of your own Legion, because the alliances you've made in the years since the Heresy during the Legion Wars in the Eye of Terror are what matter most to you now.

At some point, Vilus is assassinated, leaving you in sole command of the Host. Now you're powerful, but vulnerable. Your own Aspiring Champions are, well, aspiring. They think they can lead the Legion better than you. They point to oaths you've broken to other warbands, or oaths you've made when many of your men wanted to break them; or battles that didn't go in your favour. It doesn't matter if their slander is fact or fiction, words spreads among the ranks. Some (many? most?) of your men harbour secret desires to replace you. Or maybe they don't, and you're just worrying over glances and stilled conversations and spy reports over nothing. You form an elite guard, but they take heavy casualties because they're in the front line of every battle. And can you trust them, really? They're in the best place to kill you if it came to an assassination. Maybe they're taking so many casualties becuse your other squads keep not deep striking in time. Is that intentional, or are the frequent repairs that need to be made really causing mechanical problems? Or is it that your ships are increasingly alive and sentient, half-daemon themselves, and harder to control with conventional means?

Maybe you focus on learning ancient , difficult-to-acquire lore on sorcery, to learn how to bind daemons more strongly and control your mutating fleet. Maybe you do it to control your own men. Only, the rebellion against you grows, because they say you're focusing too much on sorcery and not material conquering. Are you? You're sure you're not, but what choice do you have? This has to be done. You have to make things secure for the warband. Don't they see that? Maybe some do. Maybe others are still planning to kill you, and will have to learn in time that they'll go through the same doubts and plans when they're in your position.

A Crusade is called. Maybe one of Abaddon's Black Crusades; maybe one of the lesser Black Crusades called by another individual of great power; maybe just a massive raid into realspace. Awesome. During that campaign that lasts 24 years and covers battles on 30 worlds, you're attacked by a warband in an ambush, in the middle of a fight against the Imperial Guard, by an Emperor's Children warband you've never even heard of, and can't remember offending. Why? Are there reasons from the past? The Legion Wars? Maybe there are. Maybe they just saw a chance to screw a weaker enemy over, or force you to lose the fight so your Legion's reputation suffers. Maybe they were mercenaries hired by another warband to soften you up for a coming assault. Who hired them? You redouble your spy network, not knowing if you can trust them at all, since they said nothing about this ambush.

During the Crusade, you ally with a cabal of Thousand Son sorcerers, and their Rubric bodyguards. They have their own ships, resources, manpower - what a coup. They join your warband, though not really being sworn members of your Host, they'd still die for you and you'd die for them, with bonds forged in the crucible of war. They could've betrayed you a dozen times, but instead they risked everything to save you from one hell of a fight. You could've betrayed them and stolen their lore, but you saved them. Except maybe you didn't. maybe you need their sorcerous lore, so you slaughter them when they're weakened from helping you. No one will ever know. Right? Right? You get away with it cleanly, never hearing about the incident again, and enjoying their books of sorcery. The Thousand Sons never seek revenge. Except maybe they do, because they come 1,000 years later, in force, to annihilate you. Or maybe another Thousand Son warband thanks you for destroying their main rivals, and offers you a union. Maybe another Word Bearer warband gets annihilated almost to the last man, because the Thousand Sons believe it was them, not you, that did it.

Back in the Eye, at several points the Black Legion descends on your stronghold. Sometimes, they're weak and feeble, offering you a chance to join them. You refuse. Maybe you negotiate peacefully. Maybe you destroy them. Maybe you sense their leader is a weakling getting above his station, and has nothing to do with Abaddon, as many Black Legion warband leaders surely don't. Other times, they descend in force enough to annihilate your world/fleet/stronghold, and you have to run. Maybe they catch you, though. Maybe they offer you the choice to wear the Black, or be destroyed. Maybe you manage to escape anyway, and maybe your Host is finally destroyed. Maybe you join the Black Legion out of necessity, and despise it, gearing up to betray them later. Maybe you find that the freedom is liberating, and stick with it. Maybe you find that it's literally no different - your warband is still the same, your faith is still the same, and you have the same complicated relationships with Black Legion warbands that you did with Word Bearer warbands. Legion ties mean everything to some warbands, sometimes, and nothing to others, at other times. Maybe you spend endless campaigns devoting yourself to the Black legion, or the Word Bearers, only to find more and more warbands from your Legion are defecting, or betraying you, or never swore quite the same oaths as you did. Why didn't they? Or did they, and it's a misunderstanding? Remember that time you were assumed to be a traitor to your Legion? If they would just stop firing at you and killing your fleet, maybe you could sort it out. Wow, how many men did you just lose in a misunderstanding? Does the truth even matter anymore? If you keep hesitating and bleating about misunderstandings, you're going to be wiped out. How weak do you look in front of your men right now? Kill or be killed.

Say you remain a Word Bearer, though. maybe over time you seek the Black Legion out yourself, to swear loyalty the Legion that seems more unified in your sector of the Eye, or that is enjoying the greatest success and by far the strongest. Maybe you remain a Word Bearer, and the local Black Legion warbands are pathetic. You lord it over them, and demand tribute. Maybe some pay, others resist, and others run to tell Abaddon. maybe Abaddon listens, and descends with the Planet Killer. Maybe he ignroes the muling whines of weaklings, and you never hear from them again. Maybe the Warp eats them, or another warband, or daemons, or some ghost-god of the slain Eldar civilisation in whose ruins the Chaos Marines have made their empire.


While you're Crusading next time, your Host joins with two other warbands - a World Eater remnant, and a Death Guard warband. Of the three commanders, you have the most power and influence, so you become de facto leader of this Council of Three. Now you have Khorne Berzerkers and Plague Marines to use in battle. This is the life, right? Except, the three factions of this new warband don't get on. They ally for convenience, or because they recognise the advantage, or even just temporarily for the current Crusade - or even just for this single world, and once it's taken, they break apart. Or maybe you manage to hold them together, and they become your lieutenants. Maybe you keep them in line, despite fights constantly breaking out between the rank and file warriors, and the clash of faiths, and the constant pressure of your lieutenants to undermine you and take control themselves. Maybe you're a lieutenant, and the Plague Lord or Skull Champion leading your mixed warband is weak, or foolish, and you know you can lead better than he can. So you're the one working to take control. You're the commander of the Host of the Sacred Phoenix Unbound, but your warband itself is known as The Triumvirate, and your reputation for success, brutality, cunning and competence begins to cast a long shadow. Other warbands can't match you in size, and begin to pay fealty, or serve you, or simply flee from you when you enter their territory. What was a simple alliance in a Black Crusade is now a legitimate warband. maybe it breaks down in a month. Maybe it lasts 8,000 years of ruthless, elegant destruction of its enemies.

But you remain a Word Bearer. Maybe you remain closely allied with your other commanders in The Triumvirate, but you prefer to spend most of your time working alone, and the bonds of the Triumvirate are only for times of great need. That makes perfect sense. Then it becomes like any other allegiance of warbands, and you go your merry way. maybe you never had anything to do with those pathetic deviants of broken Legions anyway.

Now you need new Marines. You find a sorcerous way to breed them. Or the technical facilities to clone them. Then you have to find the lore to clone them yourselves, or hire out a fallen Apothecary who is absolutely insane, for the right for him to help you. But he wants an artefact lost on on a daemon world, or deep in the Imperium, or he wants jhis former warband destroyed for exiling him, before he'll help. Maybe he does as you ask, but it doesn't work. Maybe he's too unreliable and screws it all up for you. Now you're even worse off, having lost the facility and all those resources and the time spent getting it all. Maybe he does it, and it actually works.

Or maybe you raid loyalist Chapters and harvest their fallen for gene-seed? Attacking Space Marines is risky, they don't just sit around and wait to be attacked. They strike planetary targets hard, then leave. They rarely defend, and usually attack. How do you find them? En route to a world? Lure them in? What if they bring overwhelming force and you risk destruction?

Then, of course, what about purity of bloodline? Does that matter to you? Does it somehow affect you on a deep level if your own future brothers are made from Imperial Fist or Ultramarine gene-seed? What will you do? Maybe you attack other Word Bearer Hosts and harvest their gene-seed. Maybe you cut deals with Mechanicum factions - which themselves are devolved into countless city-states and independent worlds in the Eye, allying and oathbreaking in much the same way the Chaos Marines are, and the same way every faction in 40K does to a lesser extent. Maybe you arrange to protect their forge world in exchange for them establishing gene-seed and Marine production facilities. What if they're invaded and you can't handle the scale of the war, though? Maybe you run, and earn the eternal enmity of the local Mechanicum. Maybe you get away clean. Maybe you fight it out, and suffer horrendous losses. Maybe you win easily, and the allies of the destroyed warband come for your head. Maybe the Mechanicum world you've agreed to serve screw it up, and you've just wasted a lot of time, ammunition and Marine lives in a campaign that profited you nothing.

You could fly to other Word Bearer territories, and ask to use their facilities. Maybe they welcome you with open arms. Maybe they've heard you're a traitor, or that you refused to come to the aid of another Host, or that you sinned in some way that you've never even considered or heard of. Maybe a greater Legion commander steps in and weighs in favour of your claim to gene-seed facilities. Maybe you're cast out, and have to sail elsewhere to deal with others. Maybe you approach one of the major power players, like Erebus or Kor Phaeron. Are they on campaign, in the Imperium, for countless decades? Are they on Ghalmek or Sicarus? Reaching either of those worlds - reaching any world in the Eye of Terror or the Maelstrom - where space and time obey no physical laws - may very well be something like the Odyssey, a journey that could take days or decades, under the eyes of malignant daemons through a realm that itself exists to possess, mutate, consume, and digest material life.

Maybe the human thrall-army that serves you mutates beyond usability. Maybe they're lured away by another cult's faith, to serve another warband. Maybe they're just slaughtered in a bad battle, and you're massively underpowered in terms of Traitor Guard and human slaves now. Raid prison worlds? Hmm, good body count, but they're untrained. Try to convert Guard regiments? Tough call, and it involves careful sedition work, and your only trusted co-leaders spending years away from the warband to convert the human armies. Maybe you could send your less trusted underlings to do it, but then who would the new humans serve? Would they be an army secretly waiting to betray you?

Maybe you agree to serve a Black Legion warband for sixty-six years, to have your Apothecaries and Fleshsmiths trained in the mastery of Berzerker surgery. Now you have Berzerkers. Awesome. But what if another Word Bearer warband considers that a dangerous collusion with an enemy Legion, despite the fact you've been perfectly loyal and you know a dozen other warbands have done the same? Now you have another fight on your hands, with fanatics as dangerous as you are. Maybe the Black Legion warband you've allied with betrays you, and reveals nothing at all. Maybe they're destroyed from internal conflict and the new leader refuses the old deal his predecessor made. Maybe over time, your Host and the Black Legion Company become bound in blood-loyalty, and form a joint warband of two factions. Maybe you get tired of them after three days and replenish your recent losses by stealing their ships in an ambush.

What if Vilus doesn't die? What if he starts grooming other co-leaders as the warband grows in size? Maybe he means to replace you. Maybe you most loyal warriors keep telling you they know a betrayal is coming, that the whole warband may have to choose sides. Maybe you act first, and start the civil war. Maybe Vilus does. The warband breaks apart, and the survivors go their own ways. Maybe both warbands call themselves the Chapter of the Sacred Phoenix Unbound. Maybe you surrender the name, or Vilus does, because he no longer cares about the old traditions.

What if Vilus encourages contests of competency between his underlings? You lose favour by failing wars, or gain favour by successful missions. it's all a game to him. He's no leader at all. You could command the warband and focus it to better, more meaningful ends. Right? Right? It's not like almost every other Aspiring Champion in the warband thinks the same thing, after all. Right?

While you're away raiding the Imperium, what happens to your stronghold? Is it hidden well enough in the Eye of Terror? Maybe it is. What if time and space distorts and reveals it, though? Do you leave a garrison of your best troops to defend it? Maybe you do, then you take the battlefield without your best warriors. Maybe you return and another warband has still destroyed your base, or occupied it for themselves. So begins a costly war to retake your fortress, or carry on as a fleet-based warband, forever suffering a lack of resources compared to those with fully operational and well-supplied homeworlds. Maybe you go to Sicarus as just one of the Hosts using it as a base. You still share the territory with countless warbands that have an eternity of complications, grudges, oaths, betrayals and future treacheries on their consciences. You're certain half of them even here, in your Legion's deepest claimed territory, are only united by strong leaders that demand they stay united, and enforce it by death. So many warbands seem honestly bound by brotherhood, but look over there - the fleet of the Host of the Shrieking Wound. You know they failed to come to your aid a few centuries ago, and betrayed the Legion at the Battle of Ziar by taking too long to commit to the fight. Maybe they say the same things about you. Tension is always rife, even between blood-bound allies, for glory in the eyes of the Legion's power players, and in the eyes of the Gods.

Maybe you stay. Maybe you go. Maybe, maybe, maybe.

That's what it's like to be a Chaos Marine.