Chaos V Loyalist, Supply V Demand, and a discussion thereof.

[Charon]

I actually love that POV.
I guess it depends on the Legions MO which equipment they take to their raiding partys and also which stage of assault we are talking of.
Dark Eldar are raiders in general and these spiky space faerys rely heavily on fast assault craft, so i would not discard bikes, trikes landspeeder,... so quickly. Nightlords want to break their prey by sheer terror, thats why they rely on raptor cults to shock onto their enemys. Also nothings says "you are screwed" more than a few tons of steel falling down on your comrades spewing a band of pissed off superhumans.
Alpha Legion on the other hand would have prepared long before and defensive mechanisms may become "suddenly" defunct, units of PDF may "suddenly" turn on their former friends,... while a deathguard assault may have announced itself by a virulent plague creating zombies before the actual threat in form of rotting stinkmarines even sets foot on the planet.
Iron Warriors may land all their shiny big guns and line them up before blowing the enemys resistance to bloody pieces and leaving their precious bunker system only to look for undamaged loot.

[SaveModifier]

Did. And no, it doesn't. Battle of Istavaan V happened before Lorgar's mini-crusade against Ultramar, meaning that Kharn was saved before Angron fell to Chaos. And it's only after Angron falls to Chaos that the World Eaters truly decay and lose their organizational edge -- which they were already losing due to the Nails.

That was the first time Kharn was found on a battlefield surrounded by his enemies not quite as dead as they thought he was, they also found him in a similar state after the Seige of Terra, when Angron was very much a Daemon Prince and the Legion had embraced Khorne to some extent

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Did. And no, it doesn't. Battle of Istavaan V happened before Lorgar's mini-crusade against Ultramar, meaning that Kharn was saved before Angron fell to Chaos.

Huh? I was referring to Kharn being saved from near death at the Battle of Terra - which happened after all the Ultramar business, yes? Are you referring to one of the previous times Kharn was thought dead, only to return?

Anyways, my point was that after the fighting on Terra, the World Eaters (who were at that point properly Khornate, right?), recovered various bits and bobs from the Inner Palace, so we do have an example of a Chaotic Legion working to retrieve stuff at the Battle of Terra, as a counterpoint to the suggestion that the Traitors did not have the chance for a salvage operation.

[SaveModifier]

I assume anyone chiming in here has read ADBs Night Lords books? If not, do it now, finiest 40K writing ever in my humble opinion.

That really gave the sense of exactly how screwed the traitors were, 10th Company is down to 60 odd guys at the start of the book after 1000 years (to them, they say 200 in the first book but thats retconned in the second to about 1000) of war, they have one working Thunderhawk, a few rhinos, they're stripping down everything they can to keep the essentials working, they are having to scavange weapons and armour from their own fallen or those of other Space Marines and hope they can get it all working well enough to fight with.

Most other legions are thought to be in a similar or worse situation, the level of in-fighting between factions and legions or even companies pays a heavier toll than continuing the long war, more traitors seem to die at the ends of other traitors than anything else in the books.

The Black Legion are in a better position because Abaddon, through coersion and trickery and force of will is holding them together as well as he can, but even then, its a struggle for them to maintain supplies and man power.

They don't have rhino variants because they need rhinos to get to battle, you have to use all your spares to keep the rhinos moving, the other stuff is similarly explained, except Drop Pods, no idea why they don't have those, they really should, I guess thats more a "no model, not in the codex" thing than anything.

[Nabterayl]

the other stuff is similarly explained, except Drop Pods, no idea why they don't have those, they really should

I haven't read the Night Lords books, no. Do the characters ever wish they had drop pods? I mean, what would they use them for?

That's an honest question. A drop pod is not a way to get to the planet's surface. For one thing, it leaves you stranded unless you have a dropship (in which case, you could have used the dropship to get to the planet's surface); for another thing, it's expensive - even loyalists go back and pick up their drop pods whenever possible. A drop pod is only useful as a way to get to a fight. And it comes with lots of drawbacks - principally, the inability to run away. Even if you win the fight you dropped into (which you dropped into without heavy equipment), you are then left on the ground with no heavy equipment, no resupply, and no transportation faster than your power armor.

It's good at what it does, but it's a very specialized tool that is useful for very specific situations. It wouldn't surprise me if most CSM thought of drop pods as pretty far down the "to acquire" list.

EDIT: I mean, all of which is why CSM only have access to the Dreadclaw, but then again, those things fell out of favor with the Imperium because they were hard to maintain, right? It can't be easier for CSM to maintain them, even if there are still some kicking around.

[SaveModifier]

I haven't read the Night Lords books, no. Do the characters ever wish they had drop pods? I mean, what would they use them for?

That's an honest question. A drop pod is not a way to get to the planet's surface. For one thing, it leaves you stranded unless you have a dropship (in which case, you could have used the dropship to get to the planet's surface); for another thing, it's expensive - even loyalists go back and pick up their drop pods whenever possible. A drop pod is only useful as a way to get to a fight. And it comes with lots of drawbacks - principally, the inability to run away. Even if you win the fight you dropped into (which you dropped into without heavy equipment), you are then left on the ground with no heavy equipment, no resupply, and no transportation faster than your power armor.

It's good at what it does, but it's a very specialized tool that is useful for very specific situations. It wouldn't surprise me if most CSM thought of drop pods as pretty far down the "to acquire" list.

I don't think they ever wish they had drop pods, I think they use the Thunder Hawk for the most part, and even that is barely holding together and they don't have enough ammo for its Heavy Bolters. Its fun seeing inside the head of Talos, a practical and smart Astartes amongst the lunacy of the Traitors who have been corrupted too much now, but yeah, I agree with you from the practical stand point of drop pods, they're a massive waste of resources and I could imagine a force without a reliable manufacting base (as much as one exists in the 41st millenium) would quicly find themselves without.

There is a lot of stuff about Hell's Iris too, where Huron Blackheart and the Red Corsairs live, it seems to be a sort of port for all sorts of renegades and malcontents, where Chaos Space Marines can go for resupply although they avoid it where ever possible because Huron exacts a hefty toll.

Really worth reading, very cool books, Talos seems to really hate and resent the Traitors and they all seem to hate him, all sense other brotherhood has been shattered by the Heresy, where the Space Marines were united by the Codex Astartes and formed smaller groups and reformed their bonds of brotherhood, whereas the Chaos Space Marines were shattered and split, they no longer trusted anyone, after all, they're all Oathbreakers who can't be trusted, so evern memebers of a squad find it hard to rely on each other fully. Every Traitor is out for himself, first and foremost, most have no real high-minded ideals, they follow the champions of chaos more out of a desire for personal power than continuing the Long War, only individuals like Abaddon can even stop them fighting each other for long enough to get them to try and every time he's failed because the warbands betrayed him and did their own thing.

So, yeah, read the books because I think it clears up the bit where I think people are mistaken when they talk about The Legions in 40k, in 40k there are no Legions, there are warbands, chapters, companys, groups who ally with each other for convienice.

The thousands strong forces of the Pre Heresy, they don't exist any more, logistically they couldn't work in that envirnoment for long, so, when times got tough, they split and fought over the scraps they had left.

I think the current Chaos book shows that quite well, there aren't many vehicle variants because they can only afford to keep the most essential up and running, Chaos Space Marines are expensive because there just aren't many left now who aren't Chosen or Possesed or have been swept up by one of the cults, they have to rely on the Daemon Engines and possesed vehicles because its the only way they can make new warmachines effeciently, cultists are cheap and available in abundance because when a warband marches, they would have no worries about sending in the poor deluded fools in first to die.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Eh, that destitution's only half the story, remember, the forces of Chaos have their own, homemade spacecraft (only the smaller classes, larger are captured). Vehicles that have to be measured in kilometres. They've developed and mass-produced completely non-Daemonic vehicles, such as the Hell Blade and Talon. There's active experimentation and improvement going on, along with mass-production at a frightening scale.

Chaos' capability fluctuates depending on the needs of the story. A tale of a ragtag band of antiheroes is going to show a very different side of Chaos than those stories describing armies with the strength and supplies to bring entire solar systems to heel.

The 40k universe is large and flexible enough for both of these extremes, and everything in between. A pity their Codex is not.

[Nabterayl]

I actually love that POV.
I guess it depends on the Legions MO which equipment they take to their raiding partys and also which stage of assault we are talking of.
Dark Eldar are raiders in general and these spiky space faerys rely heavily on fast assault craft, so i would not discard bikes, trikes landspeeder,... so quickly.

I don't mean to discount them entirely. But the presence of bikes and jump troops makes a lot more sense to me than the presence of Land Speeders. A Land Speeder is a lot more resource-intensive than a bike, and offers only marginally more combat power. It's somewhat more heavily armed and also faster, meaning it's ... good at hitting and running away, which is the MO for pretty much all loyalist chapters when they engage in direct action.

It is totally useful and I'm sure plenty of CSM would love to have working Land Speeders (and undoubtedly some of them do). But they aren't very tough, and like all vehicles, they aren't very good at holding ground for any period of time (in fact they're way, way worse at holding ground than almost any other space marine vehicle). Yeah, the crew can get out, but then it's just an incredibly expensive transport for two guys. If your combat doctrine revolves fighting to steal stuff (and as far as I can tell, that's one thing pretty much all flavors of CSM have in common), it totally makes sense to me that for the most part CSM would rely on jump troops and bikes for their fast elements and let the Land Speeders fall by the wayside. You still value fast stuff to some extent; it's just that Land Speeders are luxury items in the "fast stuff" catalogue.

[Charon]

Most of the books are "special cases" to make things more interesting. When we read Gaunts Ghosts we accept that they are "special" and not the average IG Army. We dont point at the Tanith Regiment and say "Here in the fluff you have no tanks and just very few heavy weapons! the IG Codex should be like this!"
Uriel Ventris thinks outside the box of the "holy" Codex Astartes. But people tend to think he is a typical Ultramarine, ignoring his stuck up buddys who would still point at a paragraph in the codex when this tactic will bring certain death and a slight variation would mean victory.
Again its not about "the same toys" its about "different toys in the same quality and quantity". The Background of CSM is pretty rich in terms of aircraft, daemon engines, warp powered wargear, living armor,... its just... the codex is very poor on these things but very rich on "lol you have to be a lot worse than the loyal guys".
There may not be Legions caounting 10.000+ Marines anymore but there are still "Warbands" vastly outnumbering space marine chapters with established base of Operation and supply lines out there.
I also guess that "warfare" is a lot simpler beeing a CSM (if you dont just fight each other).
Rogue Traders and Covois are quite easy to crack, most imperial (or alien) worlds have next to none considerable planetary force and the imperium doesnt care about a few worlds. If the imperium decides to care it can take decades before they react at all.
Space marines on the other hand are always there where the battle is hardest and the place is most dangerous. Which will lead to more wounded or dead in the process of a campain than a CSM raiding party will have on a weekend of looting farm planets.

[DrBored]

I'm not going to lie, reading through this, and many of the subsequent posts, has indeed opened my eyes to the reasoning behind the current state of affairs with Chaos Marines.

Indeed, there are things that would be easier to maintain, and there would be things that they don't have access to because those things are relatively new to the Imperium as a whole. I can understand that. I can even understand why they wouldn't have ready access to fleets of Drop Pods or other aircraft, and might have to use other methods to get their troops to battle.

Looking at other armies, Space Marines and their Drop Pods are quite unique. The only other thing like it is the Mycetic Spore. Tau have to walk onto the table and they're supported by some of the most advanced technology across a plethora of races. They don't have things like drop pods. Dark Eldar, with how fast they are, still have to follow the same rules for Deep Strike, even with their vehicles.

Some of the trouble that people, including myself, seem to have with Chaos not having access to some of the Space Marine toys is pretty straightforward, and it goes something like this...

"BOBBY HAS A SHINY NEW TOY SO I WANT ONE TOO!!!"

Now, that aside, there are other, harder pills to swallow. Let's take the Dreadnought for example.

Space Marines have 3 kinds of Dreadnought that can be taken in the Elites or the Heavy support section, depending on your other choices, and they can even take Drop Pods to bring them down to the surface where they're needed most.

Chaos Marines have 1 kind of Dreadnought that can only be taken in the highly competitive Elite slot, and is forced to waddle across the table where it is the most vulnerable.

Now, there are other walkers that are forced to walk across the table. We're not alone. The Talos Pain Engine, Eldar Wraithlord, the Imperial Guard Sentinels even, few of those have any sort of alternative way of getting onto the table, which really speaks of a weakness of walker vehicles more than Chaos being treated unfairly.

Well. I'm not really sure where I was going with this argument, but let me conclude by saying that the responses in this topic have indeed opened my eyes, and hopefully someday we'll be able to put together half-decent lists with Chaos Marines, despite the lack of Drop Pod, the lack of ATSKNF, and the lack of lots and lots of different Land Raider variants.