Chaos V Loyalist, Supply V Demand, and a discussion thereof.

[Charon]

But I also disagree with the idea that the Dark Mechanicum threw off their doctrine when they rejected the Emperor. The difference between the science that we are used to and the science that the Mechanicus does is not religion. The difference is the belief that knowledge is finite, and that in the distant past mankind had more of it (possibly all of it) than we have today. What reason do we have to believe that the Dark Mechanicum reject this basic tenet? Their split from the Mechanicus was based on a rejection of the Emperor as Omnissiah, not a rejection of the commonly held, incorrect beliefs about the Dark Age of Technology.

There are enough background books around to prove this statement wrong. The dark mechanicus enjoys experimenting outside the tight box of mechanicum dogma. Thats why they meld flesh and machine, daemon and machine, experiment with xenos wargear and so on.

Same way as the Guard does, I expect.

The valkyrie is in the rules. A chaos transport is not.

or in dread claws, drop pods, storm ravens, thunderhawks and warp magic.

so.... why I cant use them?

[daboarder]

so.... why I cant use them?

These days I really think its because SM players would cry if they weren't special snowflakes.

[Katharon]

I entirely agree with the fact that Traitor Marines should never have the best/identical equipment that Loyalist Marines possess. Where the Loyalist Chapters can rely upon the Imperium to supply them, most Traitor units have to scrounge - they steal, buy, or take off the battlefield whatever it is that they can make due with. We're given several glimpses of this sort of activity throughout various BL books (Inquisitor Lord Czevak walks through a Chaos Bazaar where you could buy anything from xenos weaponry to slaves; and there is a planet in the book that still makes IG flak armor for Chaos warbands); but then there are also those cases of Traitors that have their sheise together and have something approaching modern supply lines.

The two best known examples being: Red Corsairs (Huron) and the Iron Warriors (Siege of Castellax).

The Black Legion might come in third, just because as the Warmaster of Chaos Abaddon can proscribe tithes from supplicant Chaos warbands or worlds within the Eye.

[Denzark]

Chaos:

Can't manage: Assault Cannons, Drop Pods, LR Crusader

Can Manage: T-Hawk, Fire/Storm Raptor, LR Spartan (note FW with price-tag).

Hmmm...

I was also thinking about Mechanicus. In the Imperium, there are things that only the Mechanicus can repair/open etc. So Techmarines or Ad Mech attachees. In your Chaos Chapter, anyone who feels like it can crank open the old Plasma gun for a bit of maintenance (might be why mine get hot so often).

[Morgrim]

The only comparable 'modern' invasion by Chaos Marines I can think of off the top of my head was the Siege of Vraks, where the CSM quite literally landed on the other side of the continent and walked. It was a smart tactical decision because it let them charge into the undefended rear of their Imperial enemy and if they'd come in straight down from above they'd have risked taking severe losses before they got into the fight proper. I don't see why that wouldn't work on the tabletop for anything other than Planetstrike.

Landing so far away is probably a bit silly, but landing just outside the range of the enemy's AA guns and then charging is probably more sensible than using drop pods. Although I thought CSM had the option of teleport beacons and deepstriking jump troops anyway. Was that in previous editions?

[daboarder]

I entirely agree with the fact that Traitor Marines should never have the best/identical equipment that Loyalist Marines possess. Where the Loyalist Chapters can rely upon the Imperium to supply them, most Traitor units have to scrounge - they steal, buy, or take off the battlefield whatever it is that they can make due with. We're given several glimpses of this sort of activity throughout various BL books (Inquisitor Lord Czevak walks through a Chaos Bazaar where you could buy anything from xenos weaponry to slaves; and there is a planet in the book that still makes IG flak armor for Chaos warbands); but then there are also those cases of Traitors that have their sheise together and have something approaching modern supply lines.

The two best known examples being: Red Corsairs (Huron) and the Iron Warriors (Siege of Castellax).

The Black Legion might come in third, just because as the Warmaster of Chaos Abaddon can proscribe tithes from supplicant Chaos warbands or worlds within the Eye.

they also have, forgeworlds, empires, civilizations and so on supporting them

[Katharon]

they also have, forgeworlds, empires, civilizations and so on supporting them

That is, again, dependent upon how cohesive the lines of supply/communication are between the above and the end-terminus of the Traitor Marines themselves. Chaos armies will, either fortunately or unfortunately, never have the cohesiveness that the Imperium possesses in arming and supplying its armies (superhuman or not).

[daboarder]

Except the imperium is not cohesive. And certainly not responsive. Its a burecratic carcass. Its takes decades to even notice planets dissapearing. Its also full of factions driven by nothing more rhan self interest. Interests that more often than not lead to mutually exclusive goals.

At the end of the day however. If your unwilling to accept that the black libraries pre eminent chaos author knows what hes talking about then I guess we're not going to agree.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Certainly more cohesive than Chaos.

Dirty traitor scum.

[Kol_Saresk]

I entirely agree with the fact that Traitor Marines should never have the best/identical equipment that Loyalist Marines possess. Where the Loyalist Chapters can rely upon the Imperium to supply them, most Traitor units have to scrounge - they steal, buy, or take off the battlefield whatever it is that they can make due with. We're given several glimpses of this sort of activity throughout various BL books (Inquisitor Lord Czevak walks through a Chaos Bazaar where you could buy anything from xenos weaponry to slaves; and there is a planet in the book that still makes IG flak armor for Chaos warbands); but then there are also those cases of Traitors that have their sheise together and have something approaching modern supply lines.

The two best known examples being: Red Corsairs (Huron) and the Iron Warriors (Siege of Castellax).

The Black Legion might come in third, just because as the Warmaster of Chaos Abaddon can proscribe tithes from supplicant Chaos warbands or worlds within the Eye.

Just so I understand correctly, you're saying that most Chaos forces have to "scrounge up supplies", and as examples you are going to use an example of a thriving bazaar(which for Chaos translates as gun show, IIRC; sounds real short of supplies) and another planet that supplies entire warbands with flak armor? Correct me if I'm wrong, but bazaars are not charities. They require something in return. Meaning you can only buy from it, if you have resources of your own to trade. Sounds more like a thriving economy than a bare-bottom den of thieves robbing thieves just so they can get one more bolt round.

The reality is that the forces of Chaos, with all of their various daemon worlds, dark forgeworlds, rogue forgeworld, renegade hereteks and warpsmiths, are just as well supplied as the Imperium. The difference is that the Dark Mechanicum is innovative rather than stagnant, as the Adeptus Mechanicus is. This is why the Traitors(in the fluff and in Forgeworld) get Dreadclaw and Kharybdis Drop Pods which are complex enough to not only fly back into orbit, but around the battlefield as well. Meanwhile Loyalists get the one trick pony. This is why Chaos Marine armies are also known for their daemon-engines, of which we have four(five if you want to count the Helbrute) in the Codex, three more if you throw in Forgeworld and beyond number if you throw in the fluff background. And yet, "they are so woefully under supplied when compared to the dying, stagnating Imperium that has forgotten more knowledge than it can ever hope to re-learn."

Yes, Chaos Space Marines should be different from Loyalists. However, they are Chaos - wait for it - Space Marines.