Chaos V Loyalist, Supply V Demand, and a discussion thereof.

[Mr Mystery]

Yet my point is, how do you pay for it?

Granted I've not read the Gaunt's Ghosts novels. They kind of passed me by (though seems I probably should).

What is the common currency, and how do you obtain it? I imagine that the mentioned Chaos Bazarr is easier to deal with than the Dark Mechanicus for instance, even if you don't get quite the same choice.

Then we have other issues involved. What if a fund raising raid all goes a bit belly up, and you get mauled heavily? You'd wind up in a worse position than before.

There's also the genuine threat as mentioned in my first post of simply being mugged for the best bits of kit. Add to that that the Warbands seem relatively fluid. Within the Imperium, once you're an Ultramarine, you're an Ultramarine, and you progress through that Chapter and that Chapter alone. Renegade? It seems possible from the background that you can continually jump ship from Warband to Warband, for whatever reason.

So to progress the discussion.....what are the common currencies for trade within the renegade factions, and how do you go about acquiring them?

Likewise for Imperial Space Marines - How do they go about trade? Some, such as the Ultramarines seem self sufficient within their own realm, and most Chapters seem to have favoured vassal planets, which would probably provide some sort of tithe. But how about Fleet Based Chapters like Black Templars, which have no set patrol area, instead just arseing about the Galaxy looking for a punch up? How do they sort out their supplies? Do they actually have to pay for them, or is it a case of 'Oh, hello Mr Chapter Master, as you can see, hands are around ankles, and position adopted, how might I best supply you today, on account I suspect it's the height of bad manners/heresy to ask for recompense....'

[Kol_Saresk]

Services rendered, exclusive technology(especially for the Obliterator Cults and various hereteks/Dark Mechanicum), and I think the novel Blood Reaver mentions the usage of defaced Imperial coins. I know one of the Gaunt's Ghost novels show that the Blood Pact and the Chaos forces in the Sabbat Sector used Imperial Coins defaced by an eight-point star. As for obtaining them, personal discretion of the warband.

And yeah, in Chaos survival is tough. Look back at the post from Aaron Dembski-Dowden that daboarder put up. That is the typical life of a Chaos Space Marine. Notice all of the scenarios from being well off, to barely surviving. And the reality is, being in the Imperium ain't too different. Just ask the Lamenters, Relictors and Celestial Lions.

[Katharon]

Just so I understand correctly, you're saying that most Chaos forces have to "scrounge up supplies", and as examples you are going to use an example of a thriving bazaar(which for Chaos translates as gun show, IIRC; sounds real short of supplies) and another planet that supplies entire warbands with flak armor? Correct me if I'm wrong, but bazaars are not charities. They require something in return. Meaning you can only buy from it, if you have resources of your own to trade. Sounds more like a thriving economy than a bare-bottom den of thieves robbing thieves just so they can get one more bolt round.

When an army scrounges for things, it's not like a bunch of kids running around trying to find loose change that people dropped to buy bubble gum out of the 25-cent machine. I made a point of referencing the general method by which your average warband is likely to gain quick resources: piracy (scrounging) or buying it outright from willing sellers (some rogue traders in the fluff have been executed for being caught selling weapons to people they shouldn't have). It's not as if the Chaos systems in the Eye have their own currency or anything, it's more of a barter system -- based on descriptions from numerous BL novels. Those Chaos groups that are lucky enough to retain entire planets as their holdings might fair better than others.

Do not mistake what I said for some sort of blase response to mean "0h n0es, we'ze gotta find dat b0lter round to fire next time".

The reality is that the forces of Chaos, with all of their various daemon worlds, dark forgeworlds, rogue forgeworld, renegade hereteks and warpsmiths, are just as well supplied as the Imperium. The difference is that the Dark Mechanicum is innovative rather than stagnant, as the Adeptus Mechanicus is. This is why the Traitors(in the fluff and in Forgeworld) get Dreadclaw and Kharybdis Drop Pods which are complex enough to not only fly back into orbit, but around the battlefield as well. Meanwhile Loyalists get the one trick pony. This is why Chaos Marine armies are also known for their daemon-engines, of which we have four(five if you want to count the Helbrute) in the Codex, three more if you throw in Forgeworld and beyond number if you throw in the fluff background. And yet, "they are so woefully under supplied when compared to the dying, stagnating Imperium that has forgotten more knowledge than it can ever hope to re-learn."

Yes, Chaos Space Marines should be different from Loyalists. However, they are Chaos - wait for it - Space Marines.

You'd be wrong. As you put it, there are numerous "forces of Chaos with all of their various daemon worlds, dark forgeworlds, rogue forgeworld, renegade hereteks and warpsmiths," and they are all looking out for numero uno. It's not as if there is some sort of great kumbaya flower festival going on where every servant of Chaos is passing along a fair share to their fellow devotee. If there is one thing you can count on, it's the disunity of Chaos forces.

Those items you mention, by the way, are from the Horus Heresy; the Dreadclaw and Kharybdis Drop Pods are relics from the Horus Heresy. Seeing as how time flows differently within the Warp, many of those warbands and their gear have only experienced about a few hundred years to maybe a single millenia or two of time passing. As such it isn't surprising that some of them would retain their old gear and equipment.

The Dark Mechanicum is not innovative so much as insane. You're not taking into account the corrupting influence of Chaos-inspired scrap code and how it affected the adepts that would eventually spawn the Dark Mechanicum. They thought it would be a jolly idea to stick a daemon inside of a machine and have it do their bidding -- too bad if its not 100% effective at keeping them from going berserk.

The Imperium may be carrying on in a semi-stagnant state, but it still retains a level of technology on par or greater than most or all Chaos forces (grav guns, land raider variants, etc).

The fact that you point out that they are indeed Chaos Space Marines also reinforces my point. Chaos is a degenerating force.

[Katharon]

What is the common currency, and how do you obtain it? I imagine that the mentioned Chaos Bazarr is easier to deal with than the Dark Mechanicus for instance, even if you don't get quite the same choice.

Then we have other issues involved. What if a fund raising raid all goes a bit belly up, and you get mauled heavily? You'd wind up in a worse position than before.

I imagine that the following might be used as systems of currency: raw materials, slaves, gear, weaponry, precious metals and stones, and daemonic IOUs.

There's also the genuine threat as mentioned in my first post of simply being mugged for the best bits of kit. Add to that that the Warbands seem relatively fluid. Within the Imperium, once you're an Ultramarine, you're an Ultramarine, and you progress through that Chapter and that Chapter alone. Renegade? It seems possible from the background that you can continually jump ship from Warband to Warband, for whatever reason.

The Skull Harvest described in the book by the same name, by Graham McNeill is a perfect example of this fluidity. The choice of whether or not to dedicate yourself to a single warband or another seems to depend on the individual and the warband in question. Huron Blackheart's Red Corsairs' ranks are filled with various renegades from a dozen different Chapters and even a few Traitor Marines from the old Legions. Most of the Chaos Legions are still fairly attached to their old loyalties to the Legion, still identifying themselves as [insert: Word Bearers, Iron Warriors, World Eaters, etc].

If a Chaos Champion or leader can maintain the personal loyalty of his followers either through force, daemonic pacts, or buying them -- then it seems clear that some of those ties are strong. But, as you point out, there are just as many cases of Chaos Champions losing their heads and ambitious underlings taking over, choosing new sides, etc.

So to progress the discussion.....what are the common currencies for trade within the renegade factions, and how do you go about acquiring them?

See above for currencies.

As for acquisition: invasion, conquest, tithing of the former, and piracy.

Likewise for Imperial Space Marines - How do they go about trade? Some, such as the Ultramarines seem self sufficient within their own realm, and most Chapters seem to have favoured vassal planets, which would probably provide some sort of tithe. But how about Fleet Based Chapters like Black Templars, which have no set patrol area, instead just arseing about the Galaxy looking for a punch up? How do they sort out their supplies? Do they actually have to pay for them, or is it a case of 'Oh, hello Mr Chapter Master, as you can see, hands are around ankles, and position adopted, how might I best supply you today, on account I suspect it's the height of bad manners/heresy to ask for recompense....'

This is where things get to be a bit more interesting, but we're given enough information that we can make strong assertions as to this answer. First, lets start with what we know from the beginning: the Great Crusade and the Horus Heresy.

During the Great Crusade the Emperor bent all his power and resources towards the creation of his new Imperium of Man. The resources of Terra, Mars, and every conquered planet after that were to give resources, men, and material (in the form of a tithe set by the Administratum of Terra) towards that conquest. Since this was a military operation, there was a complex but masterfully executed method of supply. As a former soldier I can tell you that one of the worst problems that any military faces is to adequately supply its forces - its not as simple as it might sound. The ability to supply eighteen different legions, hundreds of large Imperial Army groups, and thousands of tertiary fleets and units in the execution of the Great Crusade was staggeringly awesome. It was this bedrock that future methods of supply and tithing would build upon later after the Horus Heresy.

So, here we have this system set in place to support the execution of the greatest spread of conquest in galactic history. Cue the Horus Heresy.

The Heresy did not entirely cripple the supply system, but badly mangled it to say the least. Horus wasn't a fool, the Emperor had made him Warmaster for a reason after all, and knew that he could not simply bring the Imperium to its knees by lighting a match to everything and proudly sitting on the cinders. His armies required just as much material and supplies as those Loyalists -- even more so when you consider that he could now no longer rely on the standard Imperial supply lines, some of which he might subvert to his own uses, but not entirely enough that he could out produce the rest of the Imperium. That is the reason why Horus struck so quickly at Terra, why he had the Word Bearers cripple the Ultramarines: in a long term war he would lose. The Emperor simply had more worlds, more forges, and more ability to produce more Astartes than Horus himself did. You'll notice that it is mentioned several times throughout the book that Horus' forces raided old supply depots and forge worlds (like the one that Lion El'Johnson saved from capture but ended up handing those uber-artillery over to Perturabo anyway...) along the route back to Terra.

Now we enter into the area that has, thus far, less information; that period of time known as "The Scouring." Horus died, his forces scattered, and Mr. Perfect Blue was out to set things right. If there is one thing we can safely guess at, it is that in the wake of the Heresy, during the time when the Ultramarines Legion swarmed the galaxy putting wrongs to right, saving cats from trees, and kicking the Chaos Legions back into the Eye of Terror -- it's that Guilliman didn't do things by halves. We're talking about a primarch that didn't just conquer his homeworld before the Emperor arrived to find him. We're talking about a primarch that united several dozen systems under a single, well organized government and prospering economic system. The Five Hundred Worlds of Ultramar were, as has been said, an empire within an empire. Even to "modern" times at present, Ultramar (much reduced to that old half-dozen systems) is an exemplar of what the Imperium at large strives to be. Worlds such as Calth and Armatura could produce legions and fleets of soldiers -- and supply them perfectly -- because the man that organized them that way was a meticulous savant. Truly, much as it makes even me cringe to say it, Guilliman was the greatest of the primarchs in this respect: he was made for ruling an empire and doing it efficiently.

As such, because Guilliman took charge of the Council of Terra and set about creating the framework of the Imperial government as it stands to this day, he would have (and likely did) organize the supply network and tithing system of the present day Imperium. Naturally over the course of 10,000 years some of it has fallen apart. Forge worlds have been destroyed, captured, etc. But for all of that, the bureaucracy which some may call ignorant and stagnant, has stubbornly stuck to the methodology that Guilliman set down for them to follow ten millania in the past. That alone is a victory of sorts. And in his calculations, Guilliman would have taken into account the needs of the new 1,000-man Space Marine Chapters that he had created. The assets of each legion were divided fairly evenly across those surviving members of the old legions and a method for creating new Chapters was set in place (since only the High Lords of Terra, the inheritors of the Council of Terra, can authorize the creation of new space marine chapters).

The needs of the Chapter and the nature of the area that they are deployed are taken into account in regards to what they are given. Those Chapters that are fleet based likely have forgeships, such as Chalice of Fire that helps to produce the arms and armor of the Salamanders. Other chapters, such as the Crimson Fists were given territory for deeds done or necessity, those worlds thereby no longer required to send tithes to Terra but rather to use all their resources and abilities as required to supply the Chapter that now controlled them. Then you also have chapters like the Space Wolves (and I think also the Black Templar) who not only have either forgeships or other methods of supply, but also actively take war prizes: captured ships and other assets [Berek Thunderfist's Great Company retained a large destroyer, not a strike cruiser, for transport].

Likely most Imperial Governors are required to render whatever assistance or material they can when asked by a Space Marine Chapter, willingly or not -- they have little choice. They might have a small chance to expect compensation from higher levels of authority within the Administratum, but they are likely to just be told that their "sacrifices are in the service of the God-Emperor and he will give you your just reward in the after life". So many governors probably feel the pain in their wallets, but are likely to be more sanguine knowing that by doing so those Space Marines will be keeping him/her and his/her world from being conquered, eaten, etc.

[Anggul]

There is no justification for dicking over an army that people play and prefer to another. Sure a lot of them won't have some of the stuff the loyalists have, and that's a good thing for gameplay because it means the armies work differently. What they should have, however, is just as much different stuff. They don't, which is unfair on those who want to enjoy playing Chaos Marines. Add that to the fact that most of what they do have is rather crap, and you don't have a good situation. The Chaos Marine codex was not hard to do well, but GW somehow managed to fail at it.

[Katharon]

The Chaos Marine codex was not hard to do well, but GW somehow managed to fail at it.

And I totally agree with that.

[Kol_Saresk]

Cool So show me where Chaos is degenerating. Last I heard, they've invented a total of what, seven daemon engines on the tabletop, provided Forgeworld is allowed? Two Planetkillers. Captured and warped two Blackstone Fortresses, not to mention actually made their original weaponry, something the Imperial forces that had been stationed on them forever could not do. And yet, "Chaos is degenerating".

Meanwhile, the same books that show Chaos bazaars show rotting cities for Hives(Lord of the Night), show entire colonies that had been left to fend for themselves(Void Stalker), shows a corrupt regime that will punish those who are loyal to it for disagreements of how things should be done(the Celestial Lions; the Badab War).

Part of the setting of the 41st Millennium, is the Imperium of Man is dying. When the Grey Knights are called to fight off daemons, they are willing to sacrifice dozens of worlds just to draw one daemon into the open in the hope they might defeat it.(Mortarion's Heart) Certain Chapters, like the Marines Malevolent are "so far off the beaten path" that they have to raid other Imperials for supples.(Salamander by Nick Kyme) And when the massed armies of the Imperium join together in righteous crusade, they are as likely to kill each other as the enemy.(Pretty much Gaunt's Ghost in a nutshell). Not to mention the Space Marines who have no problem slaughtering innocents if it means killing an enemy. For example, when the Marines Malevolent bombarded civilians to kill attacking Orks, as recorded in the War for Armageddon IA article. Or the Carcharodons slaughtering planet after planet of innocents just to draw the Mantis Warriors into open warfare.

And let us not forget the Nova Terra Interregnum. The Age of Apostasy. The Age of Redemption. The Waning. The Obscuran Uprisings. And oh so many more Imperial vs Imperial wars. The Imperium is no better off than Chaos. In fact, its probably worse.

[Mr Mystery]

Again, I disagree.

The Imperium, despite being disparate has a cohesion the renegade factions simply don't. Self interest is tempered by the need for mutual protection. A Forgeworld can't necessarily pick and choose who it trades with, as their neighbours are also co-defenders. Doesn't prevent them giving preferential treatment etc, but refusal of service seems unlikley.

Big bueraucratic mess it might be, but it is relatively stable.

Chaos? Again not so much. Sure, some of the better established/larger Warbands are likely to be pretty well supplied, but they are still raided by other factions, loyalties (as covered above) are more likely to be fluid. Favours can be owed, but you have to be very careful to whom you have become indebted. It's like a Empire in a constant state of regicide and civil war. It's anarchic, it's chaotic.

The Imperium also has one resource which Chaos simply cannot match. Sheer manpower. Billions of planets, each with Millions, if not Billiosn of citizens. Make no mistake, if by some bizarre circumstance every single man or woman at arms in the Imperium could be focussed on the forces of Chaos, you'd be looking at an incredibly one sided fight. Chaos have to worry about attrition in a way The Imperium doesn't really have to, in the wider scale. The Imperium also has tried and tested industry.

The Dark Mechanicum? They're mucking about with Daemons and AI's. Single thing going wrong could potentially lead to their Forgeworld going a little wibbly and gribbly and being infested with Daemons who don't exact care for previous allegiance. This is a much lower threat on Loyalist Forgeworlds, who for the most part abide by their Religion and have nowt to do with AI or Daemons (there are of course no doubt exceptions here and there).

As before, it's all about Loyalty. Let's say you have a bunch of Warpsmiths in your Warband, and your Warband is of a fair size, and well equipped. And those Warpsmiths, already of dubious loyalty on account they're, you know, renegades are made a better offer (perhaps some sneaky Archeotech?) by a rival Warband. Not only might you wind up minus all your tech support, but also minus all your tastiest bits of equipment, on account they were part of the deal.

Chaos is ultimately it's own worst enemy. Whilst The Imperium does indeed endure the odd element of civil strife, it has the size and infrastructue to recover. Chaos? Constant intercine warfare as Warbands form, fall, merge, reform, shift allegiance, raid, backstab, betray, rebel, assassinate etc.

Chaos is not a cohesive threat for the majority of the time. Yes, when Abaddon gathers enough troops for a Black Crusade, the threat is cohesive, and far more terrifying for it, but those are the exceptions. 13 occasions in 10,000 years. The rest? Small raids, system invasions, and ultimately nothing the Imperium can't deal with given sufficient warning/time. To me, that's a massive part of Chaos' appeal!

The Gods themselves are constantly warring between one another, seeking some kind of upperhand. And when a God diminishes in the Great Game, so do it's followers. Imperium? Not so much.

[Anggul]

There are plenty of organised forces of chaos. The Death Guard, Iron Warriors, Huron's lot and so on are all still cohesive, powerful threats.

The Imperium is beset on all sides and are balancing on a razor edge. This is the entire point of 40k. They are not as secure as some people seem to think. If they were, it would be a lot less grimdark.

Again, there is no justification for a faction to have less good, fun options in-game. They have plenty of sources of other things such as stolen Forgeworlds and the Dark Mechanicus. They shouldn't have the same options as loyalist marines, but they should have just as many different options, and those different options shouldn't suck.

[Nabterayl]

The valkyrie is in the rules. A chaos transport is not.

Sure, but Valkyries aren't dropships, let alone combat dropships. I am inclined to agree with Morgrim - by and large, Chaos Space Marines don't drop into the middle of combat, because by and large, sensible people don't do that. Should there be some sort of option for it in the codex? Sure, if that's what we're arguing about. Do CSM actually do it on any kind of regular basis? I don't buy it.

Just so I understand correctly, you're saying that most Chaos forces have to "scrounge up supplies", and as examples you are going to use an example of a thriving bazaar(which for Chaos translates as gun show, IIRC; sounds real short of supplies) and another planet that supplies entire warbands with flak armor?

The difference between these examples and actual supply is that you don't get to pick what shows up at a bazaar, and anybody can supply a whole warband with flak armor. There is a difference between being able to go down to the flea market and see if they have that g*ddamn Thunderhawk you need yet, and being able to call up the Forge World you have a feudal contract to and say, "Hey, I need a Thunderhawk and I can't build one in the chapter forge. Can you get on that? Thanks."

I mean ... I'm not here to argue that a codex should represent this part of the bell curve as opposed to that part. But gun shows and the widespread availability of low-quality gear are not a substitute for an actual supply line dedicated to providing elite gear.