(Yet another) multiple combat query

[Wolfshade]

I was playing an apocalypse game yesterday and an interesting situation arose, 1 squad of terminators wtih 3 independant characters (Chaplain, Corbulo and Mephiston) charged into combat wiping out two squads of guardians. For the consoldation move I dropped my independant characters behind a wall of terminators so that they could not be in base to base combat.
The next turn they were charged by shinning spears, fire dragons, dark reapers, banshees and an avatar. Because of the positioning of my terminators on my consolodation move only the terminators were in base to base contact, even after the counter charge.
The wounds I took to the squad then left my independant characters unengaged in combat, at this point what happens, I believed that the combat was over since there was no-one left to fight and a consolodation move should be made, my friend thought that the independant characters were still part of the combat and so everyone would need to take a pile in move after the combat resolution.

Some clarity would be useful

[DarkLink]

IC's attach and detach at the end of the controlling player's movement phase. So if the IC's were attached to the Terminators when you assaulted, they would still be attached when the terminators got assaulted in your opponent's turn. If they were not attached, then they were a separate unit than the terminators and thus not part of the new combat.

[Wolfshade]

Thanks DarkLink.

The rules also say that in combat that they are treated independantly so if the squad they were attached to got wiped out, but no wounds could be allocated against the ics as they weren't within range for the combat they would still be treated as being part of the destroyed squad until the start of the controlling players turn?

[Jwolf]

Because the ICs were in close combat, the Eldar would pile in into BtB with the SM Characters (as the Eldar charged). If this pile in did not get everyone into BtB, then the ICs would have to pile in as well. If any individual IC was not in BtB at the end of the pile in moves, then that IC would no longer be in combat.

[Culven]

The rules also say that in combat that they are treated independantly so if the squad they were attached to got wiped out, but no wounds could be allocated against the ics as they weren't within range for the combat they would still be treated as being part of the destroyed squad until the start of the controlling players turn?

Correct. ICs are only treated as separate units when making attacks. They are still part of the unit and will be subject to the appropriate Morale checks at the end of combat.

I'm curious, how did the ICs stay out of combat when they were required to be moved first per the Defenders React rules? It sounds like there were a lot of enemy models/units, which would make it more difficult for them to not be able to get into BtB.

If any individual IC was not in BtB at the end of the pile in moves, then that IC would no longer be in combat.

While the IC wouldn't be able to make attacks, it is still involved in the combat and will be subject to the combat resolution.

[Wolfshade]

I'm curious, how did the ICs stay out of combat when they were required to be moved first per the Defenders React rules? It sounds like there were a lot of enemy models/units, which would make it more difficult for them to not be able to get into BtB.

Enemy vehicle one side, impassable terrain the other and 10 TH/SS terminators in a confined space, meant that even with the reaction they were still out of combat range as they couldn't react through the termies.

Thanks everyone for the help, so the ics are all part of the same squad as they were within 2" of the TH/SS squad when combat was initiated, the ics were out of range of the combat to be hit and so can't have wounds allocated against them they would still suffer from being out numbered and take wounds if they lost the combat resolution and the ics would still remain one squad until they were no longer in combat and in the subsequent movement turn restore squad coherancy and then move out of cohereancy to become ics and not a squad of ics

[DarkLink]

Thanks everyone for the help, so the ics are all part of the same squad as they were within 2" of the TH/SS squad when combat was initiated, the ics were out of range of the combat to be hit and so can't have wounds allocated against them they would still suffer from being out numbered and take wounds if they lost the combat resolution and the ics would still remain one squad until they were no longer in combat and in the subsequent movement turn restore squad coherancy and then move out of cohereancy to become ics and not a squad of ics

Bit of a run-on sentence , but appears correct.

[Jwolf]

@ Culven - If the entire squad is destroyed and the ICs are the only models left standing, and the pile-ins do not get an IC into BtB, then the IC is no longer part of a squad involved in combat, and would not be bound to continue in the battle. If even one member of the squad was alive, the IC would still be required to continue in the combat, but the squad being dead means that the IC out of BtB would no longer be involved in the combat in any way.

This situation has not occured for me even once in a very significant number of 5e 40K games. It is theoretically possible, but I think practically not an issue.

(Reference the PILE-IN section, P.40)

[Culven]

If the entire squad is destroyed and the ICs are the only models left standing, and the pile-ins do not get an IC into BtB, then the IC is no longer part of a squad involved in combat, and would not be bound to continue in the battle.

I don't understand why you believe this. The IC rules clearly state that the IC may not leave a unit during the Shooting and Assault phases, nor may they leave while the unit is Locked. Even if the rest of the unit was destroyed, the ICs would still be considered part of the unit until such time as they are permitted to leave the unit. So, when making Pile In moves, the ICs would still be a unit, and even if one were unable to reach BtB, it wouldn't revert to being an independant unit.

If even one member of the squad was alive, the IC would still be required to continue in the combat, but the squad being dead means that the IC out of BtB would no longer be involved in the combat in any way.

Just to clarify, are you refering to a unit with a single IC joined to it, in which the rest of the unit was destroyed? If so then I agree. If you are refering to a unit with multiple Ics joined to it in which the unit was destroyed with only the ICs remaining (as is the situation I am addressing since it was the situation in the original post), I disagree with your conclusions. The ICs would be the remains of the unit until such time as they can move away from the unit. Until then, if any of them are in BtB, all of them will be Locked and unable to wander off.

[Jwolf]

We'll have to disagree, as I see no rule allowing ICs to form a unit and I don't believe any model can be called part of something which does not exist, so the moment the unit ceases to exist none of the characters are part of the unit.