Another debate on female space marines but humor me for a second

[Anggul]

They're all male because they're meant to be warrior monks, and the stereotypical view of monks is an all-male monastery where everyone is being holy without the distraction of the opposite sex. That wouldn't be a distraction to the mentally conditioned Astartes of course, but that's the image they were going for, hence fortress-monasteries and strict schedules of training, prayer and meditation, walking around in robes when not in battle. People often get lost with all the fancy new things the Imperium seem to have and the over-characterisation in some games and books and forget that they're supposed to be holy warrior monks in space.

The place where GW drop the ball is the models for factions which don't have such a theme. All you would really need is different heads (only for when they don't have masks such as helmetless or cadian helmets) and maybe slightly more effeminate legs. The torso difference would hardly be noticeable under the armour (flak armour for example). The Eldar 'female' torsos are just comically huge-chested. I just assume that X number of my Dire Avengers, Fire Dragons, Striking Scorpions, Dark Reapers and so on are female, but you can't tell under the armour.

[onlyonepinman]

Without getting into the science too much I can understand why female space marines might not exist, anything that increases bone density and muscle mass is likely to have a much greater effect on men than women - men have naturally more muscle mass and bone density and any genetic modification that changes this is likely to have a significantly larger effect on males.

However, I don't think this should exclude anyone from converting female Space Marine characters. I say characters specifically because let's face it, how can you really tell the gender of the models in an all enclosed suit of power armour? You just need to head swap a few of the unmasked marines, which tend to be mostly the characters, and hey presto you have some female space marines. It's your hobby, enjoy it however you see fit.

The main gripe I have about Games Workshop's lack of female miniatures in their human ranges is that most of the novels I've read (admittedly this is limited to the Gaunts Ghosts series) feature female Imperial Guard. Not in the same numbers as the men (which I personally think is an accurate reflection of the future) but they are there all the same and their miniatures range doesn't reflect this. I would love to see the occasional female trooper in Imperial Guard squads not because I have any particular need for social justice but simply for the aesthetic. Unlike space marines, a female IG Trooper will be obviously female when sculpted as a miniature and that makes a real difference to the overall appearance of the squads and it does so, in my opinion, for the better. Most great sci fi movies contain female soldiers, from Alien all the way to Starship Troopers - think they are an essential part of any sci-fi human army, discounting the genetically engineered meat-heads that are the space marines for which I think it is entirely plausible that they are all male. I do like the Sisters of Battle range although I think they should do more to distance them from the Inquisition and give them more agency of their own. I also think they need to get rid of the bondage element entirely - the repentia sisters in BDSM outfits with whips are just ridiculous and one of the reasons I would never buy a Sisters of Battle army (along with the obvious expense). They look ridiculous and no self respecting commander would consider wasting a highly trained soldier in a battle over some infraction by stripping them of their armour and weapons and making them run into battle in a spikey bikini. Games Workshop, if you're reading this - sort it out.

I do find it interesting that Games Workshop's fluff portrays Eldar as being gender balanced in terms of who fights and who does not - everyone fights; indeed some of their most iconic units and powerful characters are female and yet at the same time they are portrayed as a dying species which actually makes females much more valuable to the species and therefore much less disposable as has already been pointed out. For example, to make a thousand baby eldar requires about 1000 eldar women and one very lucky eldar man although genetic diversity might suffer a bit so expect to see a few six fingered Eldar with webbed feet. A species that is on the brink of destruction simply cannot afford to send females to war. A species like humanity which is generally portrayed as over-populated and having almost limitless bodies to throw into the meat grinder, can easily afford to send women to war.

So, is there a case for female Space Marines? I don't think that there is an explicit case for them but, conversely because it is all pure fantasy there isn't really case to not have them either - fantasy is whatever you want it to be. If I were Games Workshop I wouldn't be rushing out to manufacture legions of female Space Marines because there is no reason to do so. It's a winning formula (although I can't see why) that outsells the rest of their range combined and that is not something you mess with. Is there a case for more female miniatures? Absolutely there is and, far from thinking that a lack of them keeps girls out of the hobby (I don't believe this is the case at all), I do think it would make some armies look much cooler and it would make buying miniatures for my Dark Heresy games so much easier.

[Chris22]

Difficult to inject science and physics into a universe with kilometers long war ships, power-armoured transhumans riding giant wolves into battle, and daemons materializing from a parallel universe. And the idea that there is a veritable horde of women who want to play 40k, but won't because there aren't any female space marines is a bit rubbish to me.

You want female Space Marines? Go play with the Sisters of Battle. It's an exclusively female faction for crying out loud that can serve as a counter to the Marines, who are exclusively male.

Female Space Marines would look practically identical to a male Space Marine so if a woman wants to get an army that actually looks female she would be better getting off getting the Sisters of Battle cause new female Marines wouldn't be any different from the regulars. I actually like the Sisters of Battle and would definitely field an army of them if they ever get a plastic range as their current metal army is just too expensive.

Granted, the IG could use a few more female models to fit the fluff and reflect the fact that the Imperium has trillions upon trillions of humans. A push to get more female models for the IG would be great. Pushing for female Space Marines doesn't really serve any point.

[Billy_Mx]

I can see a couple of ppl here don't have sufficient enough interaction with the female gender in the outside world because I hadn't even noticed all these "sex-equality" issues before.

If you are in desperate need o seeing girls man, go to a WNBA game or just buy a Sister's of battle Codex or modify your models. I put pony tails in a few IG models and BOOM, there be girls in the front lines.

Maybe you are not too familiar with ACTUAL wars and military branches. You will be surprised at the relation between male and females in the front lines. From what I remember there were WAY more male marines than female Marines in Aliens as well, and Dutch's commando team was all dudes. Seriously, if you need to see girls, just go to the outside world and get your dose.

[Thornblood]

So, whilst GW is in charge of the background, I would like to offer two arguments, both complimentary to each other, but also in tension.

Firstly- I loved the warhammer 40,000 background (and fantasy) and one of the reasons is that all the action shave flaws. Its the flaws that make individuals in stories come alive, and trigger emotions about them. In the case of the Imperium, a big flaw is the way its backwards looking. Backwards looking in the sense that it holds the great crusade and when the emperor walked the stars as its greatest point, and it would like to reclaim that former glory and re-instate things as they were, and backwards looking in the more modern political sense that its not forward thinking, not trying to progress, or enable its citizens, but power-monger and forcibly enslave the citizens. New ideas are generally treated as heresy, and it plays off of the hollywood stereotype of the church in the dark ages.

As my (female) boss says; "Give me solutions not problems!"

A potential solution to this problem is; A magos in the adeptus mechanicus ordo biologis has worked out how to create female space marines through a different means to the normal man-hanced way, and is killed for his/her crimes against the Emperors design, back in the 30k era. Millennia later an Adeptus mechanicus explorator team uncover the plans. They begin putting them into practice. (Now for the consequences). A full chapter of female space marines are created and some local space marine chapters also begin to have mixed sex chapters. Some fun fluff is written about romance, brother vs sister internal struggles, the fact that the all female chapter is not as progressive as the mixed sex chapter, all good for exploring the new concept). Then the Imperium gets wind of whats happening and dosn't like it (backwards looking as they are). Perhaps they prove they are still emperor-worshipping devout women and men and the Imperium grants a pardon and contains the female marines in that sector of space for 'further study' which is an excuse which delays the civil war from the backwards thinking Imperial hard-liners (which incidentally would include the Sisters of Battle) and stops it from spreading to the rest of the galaxy.

Two more things are of note- The Sisters of Battle would become pointless, there two unique elements being- extreme faith and all female. The other is who is to say that the sisters of silence are not the female equivalent marines, its just that the role they play only allows for psychic blanks to be recruited?

However players are free to do what they want with models and conversions (and background) so you could still have female marines yourself.

As long as GW remember to keep the female armour 'normal' and have breastplates designed to deflect blows rather than those that are merely bullet traps that redirect a blow towards a ladies heart.

Lastly, the fantasy and sci-fi genre still has a long way to go in terms of sexual equality, its not just GW.

[Levaticus]

Actually, when it comes to the disabled, I was really impressed by the representation of Ravenor. His disability isn't glorified - he gets a chair, not a badass robot body - but he still continues to kick *** and takes names of ***** to kick later. Like a boss.

It's a badass hover chair, with guns and stuff. But I agree with everything you say. Correct if i'm wrong but isn't it mentioned that Ravenor's current state allowed him to become the kickass psychic powerhouse he is?

[onlyonepinman]

I can see a couple of ppl here don't have sufficient enough interaction with the female gender in the outside world because I hadn't even noticed all these "sex-equality" issues before.

Speaking as a happily married man, my desire to see female models doesn't stem from a desire to see women, nor is it so much an equality issue; I have no interest in balancing genders anywhere in the name of social justice, least of all in warhammer 40k. But I think the inclusion of two or three female models in a box of Imperial Guard would improve the aesthetic of the squad, in my eyes at least and for me I'm more interested in the aesthetic of my models than the actual army's viability for tabletop gaming. I accept that this is only my opinion and other people may be less concerned. I also don't expect to see Games Workshop actually making female models in any great numbers any time soon - this is hardly a new argument and not only have they resisted it thus far but actually it doesn't seem to have affected them in any way at all.

[ElectricPaladin]

It's a badass hover chair, with guns and stuff. But I agree with everything you say. Correct if i'm wrong but isn't it mentioned that Ravenor's current state allowed him to become the kickass psychic powerhouse he is?

Eisenhorn muses on the possibility. Ravenor himself merely says, IIRC, that being cut off from his body has forced him to focus on the mental, which has improved his psychic powers. More a matter of exercise than anything else.

[iandanger]

Personally, I do want to change the culture around 40K on the basis of social justice. Its not just about making the game more inclusive, which is useful for making it more attractive to new players, sure, but its also about the impact that culture has on participants. I don't want 40k to reinforce the machismo of sexists, and I don't want game groups to be inherently hostile to female participants. Sadly I see that all over the place. Striving to make the background more inclusive isn't a panacea, but its progress.

This is also how cultural progress always work. The old vanguards try to keep things as they are, and the people with new ideas start as an insurgency, but more often than not, the better ideas rise to the top, and the old die off as they always must. Human culture is evolutionary, and that includes subcultures. Things are going to change, especially when you're dealing with a commercial entity. It may be slow, and in the end this particular hill might not be crossed (female space marines specifically) but asking for inclusion is still valuable for challenging assumptions.

TLDR I'll take inclusion and social engineering over stubborn insistence that the way things are done shouldn't change any day, and I think in the long run that view will win, regardless of the stubborn resistance of the old.

[ElectricPaladin]

Personally, I do want to change the culture around 40K on the basis of social justice...

Thanks for coming out and saying it - personally, I'm with you. The thing is, the people who are against social justice... what are you for? Are you in favor of social injustice? Do you really think that 40k being just the way it's always been is worth the cost, if the cost is continuing the current system of exclusion and unfairness?

Now, I'd like to put out there my own opinion...

I don't think anything is wrong with gendered elements in fantasy settings. It's something that human cultures have done from to time, and stories about humans grappling with the limitations their cultures place on their lives are neat. The thing is that it's important to be more conscious about it. If anyone could be a Space Marine but the Imperium had some "in the image of the Primarchs" superstition, that would be interesting. It would include actual content about the world. If it's just conveniently not possible for women to become Space Marines are dudes, so that all Space Marines are big manly men just like everyone expects, that's... boring. It's just more of the same old same old.

Something else - anything else - would be more fun.

And incidentally, make the world a better place.