Another debate on female space marines but humor me for a second

[eldargal]

The lore doesn't support your case. That being said, anyone should be free to field a customized force if the opponents/tournament organizer allows it. Although you open yourself up to criticism when people see your female Astartes, and shake their heads in disappointment. You also set aside any reason to take offense when that happens.

Someone criticising someone else for fielding FSMs and being 'disappointed' isn't a reason to be offended, it's a reason to think they are a ****ing moron.

[Necron2.0]

It would be interesting to have tyranids declared to be all female.

I kind of think of Nids as being like "Aliens" from the movies or similar to bug colonies. With a "Queen" as the controlling entity and main reproductive organism.

Actually, all the Giger-esque Aliens are exclusively female. The only male in there is the "face hugger." The first thing to note, in this regard, is that the original Alien sculpts all had vaginas and exposed ovaries, and even though some of that got "sanitized" over time, none of the Aliens have ever had 'nads. The second thing of note is that the original alien was lifted almost completely as-is from a Giger painting, which was a bit vulgar, but in which the Alien was most definitely female.

So it wouldn't be a stretch to say that all the 'Nids are female.

[Deadlift]

Actually, all the Giger-esque Aliens are exclusively female. The only male in there is the "face hugger." The first thing to note, in this regard, is that the original Alien sculpts all had vaginas and exposed ovaries, and even though some of that got "sanitized" over time, none of the Aliens have ever had 'nads. The second thing of note is that the original alien was lifted almost completely as-is from a Giger painting, which was a bit vulgar, but in which the Alien was most definitely female.

So it wouldn't be a stretch to say that all the 'Nids are female.

I used to own an HR Giger art book years ago which unfortunately got water damaged and had to be thrown out. In that there were some weird combos of the female form and his xenomorph, and yes if Nids are inspired by "Aliens" then as you say its not a stretch too far to say they are all female. But then as you likely know theres all sorts of weird stuff in his art which seems to have elements of both sexes in one form or another and others joined as one in some odd symbiotic joining of the genitals. Obviously most of it far too 18 rated to be turned into GW toys.

[ElectricPaladin]

Again, I think that the problem is that whenever female Astartes come up, we find ourselves trying to have three different conversations at once, but we don't put boundaries between these conversations, so we get confused. If Person A doesn't phrase his or her support or objections carefully enough, the communication lands in such a way that Person B has to intuit which line of reasoning the point belongs to, and it slows us down.

Here are the three conversations as I see them:

1) Are female Astartes plausable? Are all-male Astartes implausible? On other words can it be done? This conversation has two sub-lines: can it be done scientifically and can it be done in the setting as currently presented.

2) What are the moral/ethical/social consequences of female Astartes? Is there anything wrong with the current state of affairs? Would there be any benefit to changing it? In other words, should it be done?

3) Are female Astartes cool? Are all-male Astartes cool? In other words, do I want it to be done?

• • •

For myself, my positions in these three conversations are clear.

1a) Female Astartes are absolutely plausible from a real-world science perspective. Of course, it's also perfectly plausible - albeit much less likely - that some of the genetic sequences that the Astartes modifications rely on are sex-linked, which makes all-male Astartes also possible. However, narratives work on the rule of cool, not the rule of likelihoods, so this conversation quickly bores me. Yes, either is possible, and the choice you make is much more important the probabilities behind it.

1b) From what I've read so far, it seems that within the setting as it exists right now - an important note, given how rapidly and freely GW retcons their own fluff - that true female Astartes are not possible. However, there are all sorts of ways to produce badass ladies in power armor or Astartes-things with girl bits.

2) I believe that representation is important. People tend to be attracted to media that presents their identities in a positive light. People can be harmed by living in a context in which they can't find positive representation of their identities. Given that we currently live in a world where positive representations of powerful women - women who live in roles formerly occupied only by men, and get to do it without any hackneyed "but they give up their real power as women to do it" tropes - I see the harm in all-male Astartes. Or, rather, I see a missed opportunity to do good.

And let's not get side-tracked. Thanks to Joss Whedon and his imitators, we have a wealth of badass ladies in the geek world. However, we should not forget that we are a niche market of a niche market, and even within the geek world there is a lot of sexist BS that can drown them out.

At this point, I'd also like to add that I think it's worth examining the horror with which some folks view female Space Marines. When I read people posting things like "if GW retconned in female Space Marines I'd be gone" or "they can't do that - it would be too big a change!" I get very suspicious. You don't mind when other stuff gets retconned. GW retcons all the freaking time. And perhaps some folks piss and moan, but we all get over it and keep playing. And yet, somehow this change is so horrifying?

The same applies to conversions and counts-as. You don't bat an eye - well, maybe you groan a little inside - at yet another counts-as army using Space Wolves to represent the Interex or Grey Knights as Squats or Tau as Torellian Dog-Soldiers or whatever... but bring up female Space Marines and suddenly it's a horrifying perversion of what the game is all about.

You're trying to tell me that's not evidence of sexism? Come on.

3) I am bored of tired, worn-out tropes, and monstrously manly male warrior-monks are played out.

Like I said before, I'm fine with gendered stuff in fantasy settings, but I am bored of business-as-usual writing. Worlds that use "classic" gendered exclusion to explore the consequences of gendered exclusion... well, that's been done, but I think it's going to stay important until we start treating women like people in the real world. Worlds that use gendered exclusion but play around with the details in interesting and subversive ways, that's pretty cool.

The trouble with Warhammer 40k's Astartes is that it's business as usual. It's boring. It's been done. Only dudes can become the big giant manly space warriors. Because science. So, it's just what I expected, and on top of that, you've got an ironclad excuse that defies all questioning and examination. Real creative there, GW.

• • •

So, that's where I am. I'm curious to see if considering this as three conversations, rather than one, helps us to get anywhere.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I think this is overdone personally.
Like the pasta I shouted at someone for earlier. What a jeb.

[Lord-Boofhead]

Someone criticising someone else for fielding FSMs and being 'disappointed' isn't a reason to be offended, it's a reason to think they are a ****ing moron.

There are two reasons that someone may be disappointed in FSMs

1) FSMs or any other such thing like MLP Marines ect. suggest the owner is not 100% invested in the 40K background and are just here to play uber chess with war dollies. Some of us like emersion and that spoils it.

2) Rightly ow wrongly FSM have been linked in many peoples minds with weird fetish stuff. And given what I've accidently stumbled upon on Deviantart sometimes they are right...

Me I don't judge until folks start telling me their clearly non-canon stuff should totally be canon...

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Lastly, I think it's fun to thumb the nose at any overgrown man-child who would look at such a Chapter and say, "Well, THAT can't happen!" Really? THAT is where the willing suspension of disbelief evaporates? Hmmmmm... Go FSMs!

You know that makes you a bit of a tool and a total troll?

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There have been a fair number of cases where I have seen a conversion or heard a back story and have rolled my eyes and had to bite my tongue. However, in a gaming situation, I'm not going to not play someone because they field female Space Marines as, at the end of the day, it doesn't make a blind bit of difference to the actual game play. I might think a thing or two about the fluff, but I won't necessarily say it.

Totally in a pick up game or a tourny, what ever, who cares. BUT if thats your only force expect to be shunned by the Campaign narrative players along with the MLP Marine guys and the Star Wars IG guys...

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Wow, I hadn't realised just how super-rapey Genestealers are until right now.

I better not tell you about Warhammer Fantasy's Fimir then... :P

[Chris Copeland]

Boofhead, you say I'm a tool and a troll because I have contempt at where some men-children's willing suspicion of disbelief end? Nice. Ah well, I guess we can can never be friends. Welcome to the interwebz. Of course, EldarGal expressed almost the exact same point of view and you never called her a tool nor a troll.

Let's be clear: I am not a fan of the kind of gamer that the Electric Paladin describes: the man-child who becomes rabid when presented with FSMs. I think it's good to stand up to bullies and say, "Of course I can play this way. Ha. You're not stopping me."

Cheers.