IG Command Squads

[BlueRonin]

Hey,

I know this topic has been bounced around a bit, and I've certainly appreciated allot of JWolf's thoughts on it - but I'm working on two Imperial Guard armies and I'm still not satisfied with what direction to take with my Command Squads.

One option is to load them up with flamers or melta, mount them in a Chimera; and use them as a 'hunter-killer' strike unit with the possibility of seizing an objective towards the end of the game. However, this strikes me as allot of points for a very vulnerable unit and I'm not sure just how lethal it is? It also seems to be a waste of the officers' orders.

The more traditional role is to use them to support my Platoons with orders and either some additional firepower or some counter-charge ability - but this makes them very static (although not very expensive).

Could I please get some more input on this subject? Tactics and load-out for Command Squads?

[StrikerFox]

personally, when i saw the new dex, couple lists i came up with was static, and one aggresive.

with the command squad you can either make them really cheap, or really expensive.. but for me in both cases, they werent the ones leading the charge. to me they are just too fragile..

for me i would rather spend less points on the command squad tooling them up with stuff they may not need, and put the points elsewhere. dont get me wrong, the things you can take (special officers, astropaths, etc) can be vital role players.. but shouldnt be the unit that you cry over if they die. (one player used the apoc reloaded strategem that allows them to come back on his command squad instead of on the baneblad they just lost)..

just think that the command squad with all the stuff they do is really nice and all.. but what is the one thing guard do the best??

they DIE...
the more detached you become, the more you'll love em.. XD

[Chumbalaya]

I use a CCS as another Vet Squad, making the most of that BS4 with meltas, adding an Advisor to buff the army, and tossing it in a Chimera. Orders aren't getting much use in a mech list anyway. In a foot or mixed list I'll give them a flag and camo cloaks and sit behind cover to boss my infantry around.

For PCS, I run flamers and optional Chimeras, since I'm only using infantry in a mixed or infantry list. BS3 sucks, but flamers don't care, and with the Chimera they make for a mobile counter-attack unit.

Definitely keep them as cheap as possible, don't build for HtH, and don't worry too much about orders, they're fun but hardly necessary for success.

[Zombie Savant]

There are certainly a lot of different directions you can go with the new command squads in an IG army.

I think that the cheapo setups are most appropriate for the platoon command squads -- as a matter of fact, I cannot think of a more appropriate engine for flamer delivery in the whole game. 30 points baseline, 20 points for four flamers (I would skip heavy flamers, not worth it, generally), and that's all. Put them in a chimera with a hull-mounted heavy flamer and you've got one of the best 105 points you can spend. I would suggest waiting until a foe gets close enough for you to be able to move 12" and disembark within about 3 inches of the target squad. Pop your smoke on the chimera and fire away with the flamers, 4 of which are very effective even against MEQs. This forces some unpleasant choices on your opponent -- if you're clever at this setup, you're attacking something isolated that needs to die. Often the opponent won't have enough elements in the area to deal tidily with both threats (the guardsmen and the chimera) and will have to pick one to kill. Then the other one can deal more damage in the next turn (There have been times when I put two heavy flamers on my Chimera, and the devastation was amazing!).

That's about the only good setup for platoon command squads, unfortunately. I tend to use them this way or just use them as a vehicles for FRFSRF (special characters open up a lot more options here).

Company Command squads have a lot that you can do with them. As above posters have mentioned, using their BS4 as a secondary vet squad can be very effective (meltas are a good way to go here, as plasma is being put on very fragile units), and their ability to self-issue orders is also to be respected.

I wouldn't invest too heavily in their defense. Some people want to stack up their options but it inflates their cost way too much. Camo Cloaks and a Medic is probably overkill, as for 50 points I would definitely think so. At that point, you'd be better off buying another company command squad. They are very fragile, but if you use them as such and expect them to die you should get very good results.

Special characters are, by my thinking, some of the best things you can do here. Especially someone who confers huge benefits to the army, like Iron Hand Straken (it's quite possible to make a competitive close combat guard lis!), and if you view the command squad as incidental, a 50 point "unlock" for the special character, you can really examine their potential. For instance, IHS and his command squad cost a minimum of 145 points. Point for Point, that's a pretty potent anti-everything combat element. They can draw or kill an equally pointed Grey Knight Grand Master if they get the charge -- that is nothing to scoff at.

A problem I tend to notice is people expecting their IG command to be as resilient and effective as something out of the Space Marines HQs. If you realize that you're paying half as much for something that will die eventually, you can coordinate your forces to really be effective.

Vulkan He'Stan and his comapny of Assault Terminators? That's okay, let's pour 3 demolisher cannons onto them before we charge in with our Power-fist toting commander to mop up.

Synergy for our HQ's with the rest of the army is more important for Imperial Guard than any other army out there. Find out what works with your list and stick with it!

Sorry for the wall of text.

[BlueRonin]

This is exactly the type of feedback I was looking for, thank to all of you!

Fortunately I've played guard long enough not to suffer from the idea that my guys are meant to survive the game (win the game, yes; but not survive), so I've overcome what I agree is the most common misconception of CCS/PCS performance.

However, there were a number of finer points I've missed so I've got lots to consider! : )There is one other point of discussion I'd like to raise, which is equipping for close combat.

What exactly is meant by equipping for close combat? Tooling the whole squad or just the officer? In fourth edition I had allot of success with my three command squads hanging around with power fists ready to counter-charge. Sure, they didn't survive long, but when played right the three squads would hit in "waves" smiting a couple enemy MEQ models every turn - which in total could stop a primary assault unit dead in its tracks while the rest of my army kept shooting.

Now that officers have lost their "Independent Character" status I'm wondering if this is viable thinking again - considering static, backfield command squads, of course. or os a PF just too many points for too little effect, especially compared to a 'quicker' power weapon?

Or do you simply not put any close combat upgrades on the officers at all?

[crazyredpraetorian]

I alternate my Command depending on the points level and the level of the tournament.

Straken 2x flamers, 2x melta, Chimera
Straken lascannon, 2x sniper, MOO, Chimera
SO 2x flamers 2x melta Chimera
SO lascannon, 2x sniper, MOO, Chimera
SO lascannon, 2x sniper, MOO
SO lascannon, 2x sniper

[Zombie Savant]

BlueRonin, I may not be the best person to ask as I do tool my entire force towards a close-combat end, so some things that I do may not be feasible in a more shooty-inclined list. However, I will relate some of my suggestions.

There are a number of ways to make very competitive close combat armies with the new Imperial Guard Codex, a number of which scale in quality with addition of units from the Inquisitiorial codexii. I started this game by making a Lost and the Damned army, which I found really characterful and interesting. At this point, I had no clue on how to design a force, but I knew that I wanted hordes of close combat human refuse, and I worked toward that end, with many losses on my poorly played games with my friend. As time moved on, a new Chaos Codex came out and invalidated my army, and so I moved to a rogue inquisitorial army that existed only within C: WH, it was only 500 points, mainly consistent of an Inquisitor Lord and his retinue, some storm troopers, an assassin, an excorcist, all converted to a rogue/chaotic aesthetic. As I wanted to expand this army further, I realized that I couldn't do so within C: WH, as I couldn't justify chaos sisters and they are really the only competitive aspects of the list. So I looked to induction, and soon I had a primarily IG force with allied inquisitorial elements.

These turbulent starts have made me really appreciate what tweaking and clever synergy can accomplish. If you're playing Imperial Guard and really looking to make the army close combat oriented, Iron Hand Straken is the best thing you can invest in. The man himself, as I mentioned above, is a very very good personal combatant. 5 Str 7 I 4 armor-ignoring attacks on the charge, and an additional D6 penetration against vehicles makes this man terrifying. He also has two orders, which is a boon, but the truly amazing thing is his aura which grants furious charge and counter-attack to all Friendly units within 12 inches. 30 Imperial Guardsmen charging under this aura will beat an equal number of Orks, believe it or not, and if you can always merge this platoon and add a priest to re-roll every single one of those hits! With the priest you can expect to kill about 23 Orks on your Initiative, with Fearless wounds cleaning up the rest or the bulk of the rest. The nice thing about this is that you're not spending on heavy weapons in the squad, but at the same time, you still retain the ability to fire 24" away with your lasguns, making this a versatile and great assault unit. Consider the synergy this could have with allied units (Str 5 Eversor or Callidus, indeed, I even have a close-combat Inquisitior Lord, as ridiculous as it used to be, who is now quite effective for his points).

There's an example of someone that can really accomplish a lot for only an additional 95 points, and as I've found time and time again in the Imperial Guard army, more is better. But, you asked about command squads, and I'm getting off track.

Your wave concept is a very effective one, I've found, but can be improved by a simultaneous execution. An 'average' squad of space marines is what, 180 points? For that same amount of points you can have 20 guardsmen charging in, with two power-weapon sergeants, and a 5 man command squad with a power weapon as well. That will destroy that MEQ squad, and it is wise to attack all at once, as you can likely completely wipe them without fully loosing a given unit. Why waste two powerfist commanders when you can loose a couple of 5 point guardsmen instead. Consider the following: If you are just charging in with your 5 man command squad, you can expect the marines to deal at least 4 wounds, and you to loose 3 guard. Imagine the expense that would cost if you 3 of those dead guardsmen had a medi-pack, a regimental standard, and a heavy flamer (in fairness, I didn't calculate the effects of a medi-pack on the wounds, but a medi-pack basically upgrades you to MEQ level saves)! For this kind of a setup you want the most kill to cost ratio you can accomplish. What's the best effect for the fewest points?

Now I realize this post has seemed math-hammery to this point, and I by no means consider it law, but the mean outcome is a really good way to guide your actions in a battle. I've had guardsmen kill Greater Daemons, and I've had Straken have a whole squad of firewarriors live. But the nature of the Imperial Guard really allows for statistics to come into play -- the more dice you roll, the more normalized your standard deviation will be. You can learn to expect a certain number of things to be reliable by the nature of chance. 50 charging guardsmen netting 100 dice are pretty like to have about 50 of those attacks hit. Have that in mind when you're building for close combat. As I mentioned in my last post, the 105 point flamer-toting platoon command squads is one of the best things you can buy for this role, while your 50 point company command squads are generally not necessarily best suited for assault, I feel, with the addition of orders to the game. If I were to build a command squad towards this end, I would lean towards the following:

1.) If I could reliably get furious charge from Straken or Creed: Company Commander with Power Sword, 4 veterans with free laspistol/close combat weapon. This squad is decent for dealing with anything I4, but as you can see, it is not the best way to use your HQ slot. I'd say that Company Commanders are now best suited to close-support shooting, using their BS of 4 to great effect (another reason why Platoon Command Squads are better for flamers, as they're only BS 3), 4 meltas or plasmas are a great way to filter in some high quality shooting, or if you still want close assault, try four grenade launchers on the vets. You should pretty reliably get 3 Str 6 hits in your shooting before the charge with the power weapon.

2.) If I could not get furious charge, I think I would choose simply a powerfist for company commander. Striking at I 1 and I 3, the commander and his squad, respectively, are going to die, to put it simply. You can probably put a couple of wounds out with the powerfist, while the rest of the vets act as shields.

As you can see, neither of these are very optimal setups, as far as kills to costs is concerned. There are exceptions -- I usually run my Straken Command Squad with a Medic and a Regimental standard. Straken is such a beast, I would consider taking the medic for him alone, but in the scheme of things, upgrading the other 4 soldiers in the squad to MEQ-level saves makes it worthwhile in my eyes. I like the regimental standard for the effect on the huge clumps of Ld 8 Guardsmen that usually escort this squad into battle, as it's very useful for keeping them in the fight. This setup can really be competitive in my experience, but this is a lot of points to spend in a small game. Stuff like this scales better with higher points, becoming good around 1500, and even better the higher you go. (On a side note, I'd generally rule against bodyguards, as the 30 points can be better spent elsewhere.)

There are still somethings that I'm very up in the air about: Sergeant Kell, for instance. I've been tempted by him, but for 10 points less than Straken you're loosing the 3+ save, 1 WS, 1 W, and 1 Base Attack. The good aspects is he has a regimental standard "built in" and can choose between his power weapon (with Straken's furious charge it's pretty good!) and his powerfist, but that's still a lot of points for some thing that's not necessarily amazing. I think he would be very ill-advised in a smaller game, but maybe worth it in a large one.

Lord Commissars are cheap but will fold in most combats, but may have merit attached to Ogryns, as he forces a tough decision on the opponent. Commissar Yarrick is very expensive, but could be possibly useful if attached to a large infantry blob.

Primaris Psykers are useful as well, as they have the Lightning ability that is an assault weapon by all means, and can throw out good damage before a charge.

The new codex seems inclined towards counter-assault being done with close-ranged shooting instead (flamers, grenade launchers, things like that). There are exceptions as always, but I think this is where you'll find a lot of the "Close-Combat" elements in a new IG army.

Now, as I was saying before, there are definite ways around this. Take, for instance, my Inquisitor Lord. I field this unit in conjunction with the Straken Command Squad to good effect with the following setup:

Inquisitor Lord: Evicerator, His Will Be Done!
3x Crusader Henchmen
2x Chirugeons
1x Familiar

160 points. With furious charge in effect, this squad will assault first at I 4 with 9, WS 4, Str 4 power weapon attacks (you also get 6 I 4, WS 3, Str 4 regular attacks from the chirugeons and familiar, but these usually don't accomplish much -- only about a 50% chance to kill a marine) This will often kill 2-3 marines "out of the gate." At this same step, a squad of marines will inflict on average about 3 wounds (Majority WS for the Inq and Retinue is 4), one of which will be saved or auto-soaked on the Inquisitor, one of which I tend to put on the Familiar, and a second going to one of the chirugeons (depending on how much Str 6 melee there is the opponent's squad). Then comes in the Inquisitor who will tend to deal 2-3 wounds to the marines, bringing their total causalities up to 5 or 6. Due to the inquisitor's psychic power, all of his inflicted wounds count as double, so the total count will be around 7-8 wounds dealt with only 2 received. It may be a long process, and it may be round-about, but it works. This squad tends to scale up in ability when fighting elites -- it just as readily dispatches of terminators, while the improved armaments of the terminators offer a negligible increase in effectiveness versus such soft targets.

The great thing about the inquisitorial codexii are the options! You can change this setup a bit to change the way it plays a lot. Experiment to find what works for you!

Furious Charging Grey Knight Terminators, or Arco-Flagellants, or Seraphim or really any of a number of interesting Inquisition units really improve with something like Straken on the field, or even Creed to issue For Cadia!

As far as counter-assault within the guard's other units I would strongly recommend rough-riders or even armored sentinels. Rough Riders are a kind of "pick a unit, kill it, and then die" unit, but such is the way of the guardsmen! Drown your opponent in a wave of corpses, while your Leman Russes, Griffons, and Vendettas fire with impunity. Armored sentinels could tie up a unit of Space Marines without a powerfist indefinitely, and a couple of mobbed guardsmen with a commissar can tarpit elite assault elements for an entire game.

Options and Synergy! Those are the tools of the aggressive assaulting Imperial Guard Commander!

I hope this HUGE wall of text was useful, and it's not too badly fractured or hard to follow!

[Chumbalaya]

Combat Guard can only hope to stall real assault units, they can't stand up to Thunder Shield Terminators, Orks, and the like. Anybody can kill a Tac Squad in assault, that's no real accomplishment.

[Zombie Savant]

That's a purview with which I would dissent, Chumbalaya.

The examples I used there were on a point for point basis. It was to highlight the fact, a fact that for many years wasn't the case,that you can, point for point, stand up to what are considered to be tough units as an Imperial Guardsmen in Close Combat. I mean, look at the warrior weapons doctrine from the last codex. No one was debating that that was crap, plain and simple. Maybe I just feel like a kid in a candy store, but compared to the old close-combat guard, the new one has serious teeth.

As a player who has defeated TH/SS Terminators + Vulkan with fairly standard rolls, I would definitely say that this army can bring it's own fighting tigers the frontlines. A lot of the trick of it is to weaken the foe to where you need them weakened before you attack. 3 Leman Russes can, with a small bit of luck, completely destroy a Boy's mob in one turn. Khorne Berzerkers will likewise crumble in the hail of Str 8 AP 3 goodness. The fact that we now can field some viable close combat measure just improves our efficacy in combat.

My typical list includes my Straken Build, my Inquisitor Build, a squad of Counts As Grey Knight Terminators (daemonically possessed arco-flagellants, according to my army's fluff -- a funny thing I've noticed about Grey Knight and Daemonhunter units is that, mechanically, they are interesting analogs to Daemon units, and with a bit of conversion and fluff you can make awesome renegade lists from Imperial/Inquisition armies. I have my own LATD in my own way!) a Callidus Assassin and a Psyker Battle squad. Now you may be saying that's a lot of points worth of stuff, and it certainly is, but is quite capable of destroying "elite" units such as Vulkan + Assault Termis, and retaining enough strength to combat well through the remainder of the game.

A Vulkan + Assault Termi Combo is very very expensive too. You're looking at 600 or more points easily to field this when you take into account the cost of a land-raider. A Callidus Assassin with Furious Charge can reliably kill two or, with a spot of luck, 3 termis a turn with a decent charge. Keep the rest of them locked down with sturbborn infantry and keep breaking off and charging in.

I mean, lord, let's blob an infantry platoon, add a commissar, a priest, and power weapons. 380 points or so. On the charge, you're looking at what, 18 power weapon attacks and then 90 regular attacks, all with re-roll's to hit? And let's assume that you have furious charge, which would still makes this cheaper than the combo. You're looking at 6.75 3+ saves from the power weapons, from which two or so termis will die. 33.75 regular wounds inflicted by the guard, you're looking at another 5-6 termis dead. I mean, that's done, right then and there. I realize that mathammer is not always going to happen, but the math is there.

Saying that we can't take on the tough stuff is bollocks.

Now, it's not perfect. If you don't get the charge against an equal number ork-horde, you're probably going to loose. But last I remembered, the Orks don't have too many battlecannons shots to weaken your horde -- well we do. Close combat can be made a useful element of an Imperial Guard army -- it's as simple as that.

So, as someone who's faced it, I say bring on the Vulkan madness! He's paying 600 points for a handfull of models. I'm paying 600 hundred points for 5 or more times as many models. Let him come on in! Disembark, roll out, bring it on!

The great thing about this kind of army is: If I can't drown you in bodies, then I'll bury you in ordnance. Hellhounds, hell even Chimeras with Heavy Flamers can take sizable chunks of ork down. You want your Nob Bikers? Let my psyker battle squad weaken your resolve and my Callidus' neural shredder insta-kill you on a 2+.

We have such a plethora of options we can pull off a huge variety of playstyles. It's all there if you want it, you just have to look in the right places.

[Chumbalaya]

GKTs aren't Guard. They're fantastic in assault, Guard aren't.

Even the lauded Straken squad is still very simple to bring down. It's just 1 guy doing all the damage, killing off his flunkies will rack up the kills faster than Straken can dish out the pain, so they get run down by even basic assault troops.

Termies laugh at battle cannons, and Berzerkers should never be on foot.

A big blob will tie things down, but they won't be winning out with dedicated assaulters, and even then, they aren't shooting and are quite easy to bring down with flamers and templates instead.

Close combat with Guard themselves, not their GK buddies, is a fun trick or mop up tool, but definitely not central to a successful army. If you want to get into assault with a bunch of S3 T3 dudes, go nuts. It won't work on good players.