Game of Thrones addict...

[Denzark]

The problem with rape vs the other horrible things that happens on Game of Thrones is that all of those are either fictional entirely or so rare in the modern world that they are basically hypothetical to most people. The chance of being murdered in the UK is 1.2 in 100,000. The chance of being raped is about 1 in 5. Don't bother to give me stats here but I highly doubt this is the Stat for the UK. Neither a 1 in 5 chance of being raped at any given time is true, nor is 1 in 5 women in the UK victims of rape.

Murder doesn't leave traumatised survivors who can be triggered by scenes like this, rape does.

Tell that to the Soham families. This is an incredibly trite thing to say.


Most of the other hyper-violence in GoT is so obviously fictional it is easy to separate from reality. Rape isn't. Rape is a common, daily occurrence which is not taken seriously by society, its perpetrator are not punished and the onus is places on the victim not the aggressor. Rape is absolutely not something which should be used inserted into a show just to shock people because there are large numbers of people who have had hteir lives ruined by sexual assault around today to see what they suffered through being used as a cheap narrative trick in a television show.

I think the difference between rape and murder is clearly one is anathema to your politics and one isn't. Feminists privilege mayhaps? The result is that we are now subjected to crayoning over a thread about a TV show with thoughts about rape. Wonderful.

Where's my cornflakes?

[eldargal]

Murder by definition doesn't leave a victim, I'm surprised you hadn't realised that. Rape is common, murder is not.

You don't get to ****ing dismiss it and then say 'don't show me stats'.

[URL="https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/an-overview-of-sexual-offending-in-england-and-wales"]There are an estimated 85,000 cases of rape (not just sexual assault, but rape) each year[/URL]. The overwhelming majority of these leaves a traumatised survivor and friends and family who are also traumatised to some extent.

[URL="http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-18900384"]There were 550 homicides in 2011-12[/URL]. None of those left a traumatised survivors on account of the victim being dead. The traumatised family and friends are still going to be exponentially outweighed by rape survivors alone. I'm not downplaying how horrible having someone close to you murdered is but it is still really, really rare.

Murder is rare, rape is common. Murder doesn't leave traumatised survivors who can be re-traumatised by callous, gratuitous scenes in television shows, rape does.

Here is a thought, if people don't want a topic about a television show not to have discussion about rape in it, maybe the ****ing show shouldn't include gratuitous rape scenes? Why is it ok to talk about what a ******* Joffrey is or how awesome Arya is but not how the show depicts sexual violence? It is a part of the show, afterall. You don't get to pick and choose what ****ing issues a show raises get discussed.

[Mr Mystery]

And of those cases, they don't include my experience, on account legally, a woman cannot rape a man.

Except they very much can, and it is indeed unpleasent.

[eldargal]

And of those cases, they don't include my experience, on account legally, a woman cannot rape a man.

Except they very much can, and it is indeed unpleasent.

Yup, the above stats are just looking at female victims. It also only included pentrative rape, if you include sexual assault in general the figure rises to 404,000 women and 72,000 men. The murder rate varies from 550-900 depending on the year in the past decade or so. I think 2010 was a low point with 440 or so, half of which were women. So don't even think about saying murder isn't a feminist issue when between a third and a half of murder victims are women.

And again, you don't get to have a ****ing rape scene in your teevee show and not have it discussed in discussions about that teevee show. Don't want to wade through discussions like this? Write to HBO and tell them to get their ****ing **** together and not show gratuitous rape scenes.

[daboarder]

Im sure the families and witnesses of murder love being dismissed.

[Wildeybeast]

I'm curious as to the why now?

As in why now has the show crossed your (general your) moral event horizon?

Is it because the director made that statement claiming he didnt intend it to look like rape? Or is it merely the depiction of rape in and of itself?

If its the first then sure I can see why you would be upset by the directors thoughts on what constitutes rape, but then your responce should concern the director not the show itself.

As for the latter, do people really think that the depiction of rape is worse than the depiction of torturing children to death? because thats happened in this show.

Was the aggression in the scene unnecessary, sure I think it was, but its not by far the worse thing thats depicted in this show.

Hell in the same episode you have a bunch of people eating a child's parents in front of him, before killing him.....so....yeah....

I didn't say it had crossed my moral event horizon. There is plenty of stuff in there that I find objectionable, but I'm able to separate it out mentally from real life, same as this. I'm not calling for people's heads or gathering an angry mob. But they did make a mistake and it's right that we draw attention to it, not act as apologists for them.

My problem is that it was unnecessary and inconsistent with both the show and the books. EG has already made the point about Jamie's views on sexual violence and I've already said it is out of keeping with their relationship. But it also breaks the internal moral code of the universe. Rape is never actively depicted, only ever referenced, neither is the murder of children. Slavery is definitely wrong, but treating women as second class citizens is the norm. I'm not saying that moral code is right, but it is there. The wilding scene you reference is incorrect. The boy is told his parents are going to be eaten, but then sent packing for castl black. No more is made of it. We never see the cannibalism and in fact don't no whether this happens or was simply said to terrify the child. The show crossed it's own lines with a rape scene.

But none of those really matters. The biggest issue is that they didn't mean to make rape sene and apparently no one forsaw how much this looks like a rape scene. What does that say about their editing process, and far worse, their views on rape? How did so many people think this scene was ok, without anyone picking up that many people would view it as rape? And then for no one (othe than GRRM) to apologise makes it worse.

Compare it with the underwear scene in Star Trek. The directors and producers explained their reasons, offered up the Cumberbatch shower scene by way of balance, but most of all, apologised. They said they made a mistake, that it was gratuitous and unnecessary and that they would learn from it. Most people were happy with that and moved on. No angry mobs, internet rage quelled.

That is all it would take it here. The scene was unnecessary and inconsistent with the rest of the show. I believe them when they say it was meant to be consensual, as I suspect will most reasonable people. So all they need to do is say sorry that it didn't come out that way and that they will think more carefully in future.

[eldargal]

Im sure the families and witnesses of murder love being dismissed.

Not dismissed, put in perspective. Murder is really, really rare and those traumatised by it are very, very few. In contrast rape and sexual assault is very, very common. There may be thousands of people traumatised by witnessing a murder or losing a loved one to murder but there are hundreds of thousands of sexual assault victims every single year. That is a lot of people for whom the worst experience of their life is reduced to a gratuitous scene in a television show because the writers ****ed it up.

But none of those really matters. The biggest issue is that they didn't mean to make rape sene and apparently no one forsaw how much this looks like a rape scene. What does that say about their editing process, and far worse, their views on rape? How did so many people think this scene was ok, without anyone picking up that many people would view it as rape? And then for no one (othe than GRRM) to apologise makes it worse.

Right and this is the thing that seems to be lost on people. The morals of Westeros have nothing to do with it. The issue here is that the writers screwed the scene up. By their own admission it wasn't supposed to be a rape scene, but it was. All it would have taken was Cersei saying yes at the start like she did in the book to avoid this. They ****ed up and the scary thing is how many people are becoming rape apologists rather than accept the shows writers ****ed up. You have people who will happily ignore the fact the whole thing was against the authors intent AND the characters own moral values just because, what, they like the ****ing show?

[daboarder]

Right and this is the thing that seems to be lost on people. The morals of Westeros have nothing to do with it.

Its not lost on anyone, I made a point of adressing that in my first post.

People just arent agreeing with your assessment of the depiction of murder as a "lesser" evil than that of rape.

And frankly if thats your world view, its scarily skewed.

By your own logic theft is worse than rape and murder, as its more common and leaves more "victims"

edit: Widley, I agree with your assessment that it was an unnecessary and uncharacteristic act by the characters. It was likely added solely for shock value.

[Mr Mystery]

I think you're misunderstanding EG's point here.

Rape is something you survive (for the most part). Thus, when you have been raped, you face stuff on telly which can trivialise it, or bring unwelcome memories to the fore. Take my experience. I've moved on, but occasionally I'll hear a phrase which brings back a deeply unpleasent memory. And my experience is pretty far removed from the more brutal kinds people are subjected to. I don't enjoy seeing it trivialised, even when it's role reversed from my experience. It's not something to be taken lightly at all. Cersei eventually appears to submit, which is not the same thing as giving consent. That this isn't that well known to be, you know, rape, is a massive, massive issue in the world.

Murder? The prime victim is sadly deceased. Yes, the family may see on telly stuff which reminds them of the horrific circumstances of their loss, but unless they were forced to watch the actual murder, they remain spared the details. And that is a crucial difference in viewing a murder on the telly. Few people in the world will be seeing a scene they actually experienced, so the trauma is lessened compared to rape victims, whether you care to admit it or not.

[eldargal]

It is not lesser, it is rarer and by definition doesn't leave victims behind to be traumatised by seeing it on television. The issue isn't that depictions of rape is some kind of taboo (there was an earlier scene with raped ANd murdered peasants who were avenged by Brienne which was brutal without being gratuitous) but that this scene was completely mishandled and that people are lining up to show themselves as rape apologists rather than just accept the writers ****ed up.

By your own logic theft is worse than rape and murder, as its more common and leaves more "victims"

That isn't my logic, that is your perverse interpretation. It was also you who brought murder into it, not me. I was talking about the scene as a rape scene in isolation and how the writers mishandled it when you brought up other unrelated crimes.