Astra Militarum/Imperial Guard - A Comprehensive Review & Comparison

[Gleipnir]

+1

I also find myself thinking what Kath is saying is an advantage to all AM/IG players!

Also I was thinking of adding a unit of Bullgryns to my army! 6 of them 3 with the slab shields and the other 3 with the mace and brute shields! Is this a good idea or not?

I considered doing the same but only for the Boneead in the unit for challenge purposes, and keepiing the remaining Bullgryns with Slab shields to provide an additional cover advantage to units like Heavy Weapons and Command Squads in Chimeras.

If i wanted to field the Bullgryns for thier assault role I think i would just give the entire unit Brute shields and Power Mauls w/ a Ministorum Priest and possibly a Divination Primaris Psyker

[The Emperor]

It's down the grammar of the writing. If they FAQ this, then that's fine. But until then, if I field or am facing a unit of Wyrdvane Psykers, this is how I expect to use/face them.

And if I face someone who tries that against me, I'll be picking up my miniatures and leaving, because I don't play against cheaters.

[Katharon]

Just wanna say I do appreciate the rest of your post Katharon, not trying to pick on ya here but this is the crux of what is wrong with your assumption here, Psyker followed by a selection of power selctions in the unit profile does not equal Psyker in the unit Special Rules.

Also as far as Leman Russ goes my opinion never changed since I had always been playing it the RAW way, including at local tournaments and GW store events, until a small minority here tried to say it applied to all shooting attacks.

I know Gleipnir, and I appreciate the criticism. Truly. The only true way to operate as a community is to have open discourse - even if we might like to throw a few nasty words around whilst doing so.

My point about the Special rule, however, is that the only reason why Wyrdvane Psykers do not have "Psyker" special rule is because they already have "Brotherhood of Psykers". I don't know how more clear I can be in trying to make that point...I feel kind of lost.

[Charon]

My point about the Special rule, however, is that the only reason why Wyrdvane Psykers do not have "Psyker" special rule is because they already have "Brotherhood of Psykers". I don't know how more clear I can be in trying to make that point...I feel kind of lost.

We understood that point. Its just that "Brotherhood of Psykers" and "Psyker" are two DIFFERENT rules.
"Brotherhood" makes the entire unit act like a single ML1 Psyker.
"Psyker" makes an individual model a Psyker.
"Brooderhood" does not grant "Psyker" to individual models, thats what "Psyker" is for.

[Katharon]

We understood that point. Its just that "Brotherhood of Psykers" and "Psyker" are two DIFFERENT rules.
"Brotherhood" makes the entire unit act like a single ML1 Psyker.
"Psyker" makes an individual model a Psyker.
"Brooderhood" does not grant "Psyker" to individual models, thats what "Psyker" is for.

All Brotherhood of Psykers says is that the unit collectively counts as a Level 1 Psyker, but "follows all the normal rules for Psykers." I again stress this point. Both BoP and Psyker USRs govern the use and number of Psykic powers of a model. If I have five Wyrdvane Psykers and four die, the fifth does not stop being a Psyker simply because he is now alone and no longer part of a living brotherhood. He/She is in their own right a Mastery Level 1 Psyker that would, if the other members of his/her unit were alive, operate according to BoP (and still do even with the other four are dead).

[Charon]

Ok. One last try.

All Brotherhood of Psykers says is that the unit collectively counts as a Level 1 Psyker

correct.

but "follows all the normal rules for Psykers.

Also correct. The unit (which, as you correctly stated, counts as Lvl 1 Psyker) follows the normal rules for Psykers. So. The UNIT generates 1 Warpcharge, generates 1 Power, is subject to perils of the warp and has to make psychic tests.

Both BoP and Psyker USRs govern the use and number of Psykic powers of a model.

No, they dont.
BoP governs the use and number of powers of an ENTIRE UNIT (you even wrote UNIT every time, why you keep changing the word "unit" to "model" every time?)
Psyker govern the use and number of Psykic powers of a model.
BoP does nothing less than making the entire UNIT for psy purposes act like A SINGLE MULTI WOUNDED MODEL.

If I have five Wyrdvane Psykers and four die, the fifth does not stop being a Psyker simply because he is now alone and no longer part of a living brotherhood.

"Brotherhood of Psykers" does not have a quantity regulation. A single model can be a "Brotherhood of Psykers" as well as 100 can. You dont lose the BOP USR just because you are down to one model. You dont magically change rules. He is still (as and single model unit ingame) a UNIT, and as such has according to BOP rules a ML of 1 and 1 power per ML.

He/She is in their own right a Mastery Level 1 Psyker that would, if the other members of his/her unit were alive, operate according to BoP (and still do even with the other four are dead).

He is no Mastery Level 1 Psyker. He never was. The unit (which still exists as he is still alive) still has the BOP USR and operates as a ML1 psyker, no matter if he/she is the only survivor - the UNIT is still alive.

[Katharon]

You make the mistake at your sixth sentence. In the unit description, where it says what power disciplines the Wyrdvane Psykers generate their powers, the language is pluralistic and indicates that each individual psyker/model in the unit generate an individual power.

"Brotherhood of Psykers" does not have a quantity regulation.

Indeed, it doesn't. Because each model that is part of a unit that has BoP is treated as an individual psyker in all situations except in the using of a psykic power.

I implore you to keep an open mind and re-read the rules for Psyker and Brotherhood of Psykers. In no case within the language there written is there a contradiction in what I have been saying this entire time.

[Houghten]

each model that is part of a unit that has BoP is treated as an individual psyker in all situations except in the using of a psykic power.

I can think of at least one situation where that is emphatically not the case: where Dark Eldar Haemonculi activate a Crucible of Malediction, forcing every psyker in range to pass a Leadership test or be removed from play. Brotherhoods of Psykers only lose a single model if they fail the test, and the unit only takes a single test.

[Charon]

And the cycle starts anew. I already pointed out that pluralistic use covers multiple choices of the same unit, as in Fire PrismS, DefilerS,...
I also pointed out that this is the standard rule text for every Psyker unit in the game. Even ML1 Warlock "generates his powerS" (do you suggest he has more than one?).
Their powers refers to them als collective, not as a single Model. In which case they use (as pointed out above) "A Wyrdvane Psyker generate his powers...."

Oh believe me I keep an open mind. But you keep contradicting yourself by substituting "unit" and "model" when it seem to fit your argument.
Even the "case of grammar" contradicts you as they use a very different wording when refering to Models with powers (even if they are organised in a big unit of the same models) or to UNITS with powers.

Your "idea" even disrupts most of the powers/actions heavily.
Example: Perils of the Warp hits your 15 spells unit while casting "Iron Arm". Does the Spellcaster die? Nope. The one with "Doom" dies because its random.
Example: You cast "Iron Arm" again. It reads "the Psyker". Who did cast it now as you treat them all as individual Psykers?

Brotherhood has a solution for all of this. In the first case you remove one model, does not change the units behaviour at all. In case 2 THE ENTIRE UNIT gets "Iron Arm" as the ENTIRE UNIT is "the psyker".

Indeed, it doesn't. Because each model that is part of a unit that has BoP is treated as an individual psyker in all situations except in the using of a psykic power.

And this is the point where the discussion ends because you just keep on making up things. BoP does non of the things you write here. It never mentions SINGLE/INDIVIUAL ODELS with a single line. The only thing it does (and mentions) is letting the whole unit act like a single lvl 1 psyker. Not 10 single lvl 1 psykers.

[The Emperor]

Let's put aside rules interpretations for a moment here.

Does anyone really believe that, when writing the codex, GW intended for each individual Wyrdvane Psyker to each have a separate psychic power? Does anyone really think GW actually wants that? If you're being honest with yourself, then the only answer you can put to that question is "No", in which case this whole discussion is immaterial.