Acceptance for Stronghold Assault

[DrBored]

Stronghold Assault is fine, and in my opinion it can give many armies an answer to fliers that they might not have otherwise.

There are two problems with it...
1. It makes gunlines even stronger by adding more big guns and a place to give better cover for gunline models. This on its own isn't terrible, but it promotes a style of gameplay that isn't very interesting or fun.

2. People tend to say Stronghold Assault in the same breath as Escalation, and Escalation has a lot more hate behind it than SA does. They came out side by side, SA as a small pill to swallow, but Escalation as a huge pill to swallow. It was just a bit too much at once. I think if SA came out a few months before Escalation, we'd see more fortifications in lists.

That said, the nice thing is that you only get one fortification, so it's not like you're overpowering your gunline by giving every Fire Warrior squad or Imperial Guard platoon even more strength, and many of the fortifications have limited carrying capacity, fire points, or don't have either and require models be dedicated to firing those weapons, which is pretty much like giving a model in a unit an extra heavy weapon that can never move. That's pretty balanced.

A lot of players in my local meta don't seem to get the idea that fortifications CAN be destroyed, especially by things like Melta, and that grenades DO exist and can do FANTASTIC damage to models inside fortifications, along with things like flamers. So, benefits are balanced by detriments.

I'd like to see more lists with fortifications, but the points you spend into them take away from points you could be putting into your flying circus, or Heldrakes, or whatever Deathstar you're running, so competitive players tend not to be interested.

[Charon]

I'd like to see more lists with fortifications, but the points you spend into them take away from points you could be putting into your flying circus, or Heldrakes, or whatever Deathstar you're running, so competitive players tend not to be interested.

Not really. You dont take away points from there you cut on other units. Depending on points a macrocannon with 2 voidshields, big helcult, reroll sorc 3 drakes, lots of autocannons and a few spare cultists is perfectly possible.

Maybe Eldar would get rid of the Jetseers (you dont really need them if you have a D cannon) and squeeze another Serpent in.

[DarkLink]

What about armies with no access to deepstriking melta. Which is most everyone that isn't a Marine?

Regardless, I think the real reason is simply that people don't actually play expansions very much. For all the talk of cities of death and planet strike and spearhead and escalation and stronghold assault, I never actually see anyone playing them outside of just after their release.

[Denzark]

And what does prevent Tau/Eldar/Coteaz/Screamerstar from taking D/Void/AAA?
The problem in this is that the thinking stops at "D kills deathstars!". A strong army can still pick a D weapon. Jetseers are no thing anymore? Damn... oh wait let me grab this D Weapon and more Serpents!
These things are not only for armies that couldn't deal with. These things are also for armies which are also strong without them. Taudar gunline with D Weapon and movement impairing battlefield sections? Oh yes please...

I think you're deliberately being obtuse. Before SA, the strong codexes could pick a list of however many points and because of economies of scale and relative power balances, the weaker codexes couldn't hope to pull off a win other than by luck. No matter what units from their codex to the same points cost as the strong codexes. Now, the weaker codexes have access to stuff that levels the playing field. Anti air they might not have had before, or D. Of course the strong codexes have access to the same. But that means their winning list has to change to include such things. 1000pts of Tau behind fortifications costing 500pts is different to 1500 in the open field. The strong codex player has to choose - do I press print on what I had before or do I join the arms race because if I don't and they get first turn, I am going to get smashed.

It is a leveller.

Not only that, it is intended to be such. I overheard my local blueshirt telling another customer that at the UK national managers convention recently, a question was asked 'What do we tell our customers who ask 'how do I deal with Seerstars?' The answer he recounted was 'tell them to use D weapons'.

[Charon]

In my eyes its no leveller, its a crutch.
If a bully beats up a weaker kid the "fight" doesnt get more even if you tell them "you can take baseball bats!"
The conversation you hear reinforces that. "We made grave design mistakes now lets sell a product which will take care of this problem and creates new ones."

Stronger codices are not strong because of one "unbeatable unit". They are strong because they are well written (as any codex should be) and have very few "useless" units.
An Eldar Army without Seerstar is still very strong, same game for Tau.

If everybody started to play escalation or stronghold (I guess the price barrier is keeping many people out) the next question would be "How do I prevent a D weapon destroying my best unit(s) on turn 1?"

[DarkLink]

Str D is more gamebreaking than the deathstars are. Using it as a 'leveler' is a terrible, terrible idea. It quickly becomes a game where the only thing that matters is how much D you've got.

[Eldar_Atog]

I think you're deliberately being obtuse. Before SA, the strong codexes could pick a list of however many points and because of economies of scale and relative power balances, the weaker codexes couldn't hope to pull off a win other than by luck. No matter what units from their codex to the same points cost as the strong codexes. Now, the weaker codexes have access to stuff that levels the playing field. Anti air they might not have had before, or D. Of course the strong codexes have access to the same. But that means their winning list has to change to include such things. 1000pts of Tau behind fortifications costing 500pts is different to 1500 in the open field. The strong codex player has to choose - do I press print on what I had before or do I join the arms race because if I don't and they get first turn, I am going to get smashed.

It is a leveller.

I would disagree. I would say that the weaker codex player is less likely to start using the Stronghold rules. If they are still doggedly playing an army like orks then they are more worried about the fluff/modelling and not winning/lossing. I've been watching the posts my warhammer group posts to facebook and it's been the bandwagoners and WAAC's that have been talking up the stronghold rules. The people with weaker codexes just talk about rumors about new codexes or perhaps their latest paint job.

I guess it is a leveler... It's a tool the bandwagoner/WAAC player can use to completely flatten their weaker opponent so that they can enjoy a smooth, luxurious drive across the table.

[Maelstorm]

I believe releasing Stronghold Assault alongside Escalation is what kicked it in the dangly bits.

GW is desperate to get us to buy more and more expensive toys - along with an every-increasing library of books - they rapid-fired the two releases and sunk them both.

[Gleipnir]

What about armies with no access to deepstriking melta. Which is most everyone that isn't a Marine?

Regardless, I think the real reason is simply that people don't actually play expansions very much. For all the talk of cities of death and planet strike and spearhead and escalation and stronghold assault, I never actually see anyone playing them outside of just after their release.

Unlike Kill Team, Planetstrike, Cities of Death, Spearhead and Apocalypse though Death from the Skies, Stronghold Assault, Escalation and Altar of War are supplements of the Standard gameplay rather than an alternate ruleset, making them no different than the Vehicles, Psykers and Characters Advanced rulesets presented in the BRB, only difference being they are in a separate book.

Which makes it like saying you can play using the Chaos Space Marine Codex but don't you dare use the Crimson Slaughter Supplement.

[Denzark]

Str D is more gamebreaking than the deathstars are. Using it as a 'leveler' is a terrible, terrible idea. It quickly becomes a game where the only thing that matters is how much D you've got.

This is true, it is in many cases all certain codexes can rely on.

The good codexes are strong because they are well-written to some extent - but what it really boils down to is lots of aspects which can warp the normal flow of play by doing exceptions to the rules. Ignoring cover, multiple overwatch, re-rollable invulns are all examples. Where armies can't do this - and their 'thing' is negated by these, they can only really take the nuclear option...