Acceptance for Stronghold Assault

[Chumbalaya]

Man, a lot of people don't get tournament play. It's equal parts entertaining and sad.

Stronghold is a neat addition. Super-forts, void shields and Str D are full retard, but the majority of it is nice. My main complaint with stronghold is that it's a paid errata. Stronghold fixes a lot of the problems with forts in the BRB, but you can only use the updated rules if you fork out the cash for it. If Stronghold's release was immediately followed by an online errata that updated the forts in the BRB, I'd be ok with it.

[Charon]

Except the guy with the Knights can beat the Orks, or Tau, there is something that means he can't win all the games.

Which completely defeats the purpose of the game mode. If your glorious "change in the meta" is nothing but a "ok you won the tournament because you didnt have to play vs the knights", then you didnt break the meta. You just broke the game mode.

The threat that you might meet D Weapons that will massacre you means you avoid taking Death Stars, thats how it works, even if you never see a Macro Cannon or a Knight list, the fact you had that threat means you avoided Jetseers and took a more varied list.

Lets play with that idea for a moment. While the statement is correct (Deathstars WILL be avoided) there is a danger to it. You think that it produces more vartiety. That is not the case. It is true that it does let deathstars vanish but also EVERY OTHER HIGH POINT COST UNIT IN THE GAME. Fancy to field that Warp Talons? Congratz D Weapon eats them. Want to see Terminators? D Weapon eats them. Chaos Spawn? D Weapon eats them. Leman Russ Squadron? D Weapon eats them.
Everything that kills a Deathstar in one single blast also kills every other unit in one blast. Cheap MSU are meta. Guess what: D Weapon blasts reinforce that as you cant afford to have any big unit in a game with a D Weapon.
Lits dont get more variety. They just have to take a different (optimal) approach.

D weapons are A Bombs, as long as they exist, they change the game and force people to use different tactics, but actually using them is self-defeating.

And we all know how well this works. Not the existence of A bombs prevent their use, but the auto-retailation. You cant win cause if you nuke them they nuke you. That doesnt work in a turn based game. If you nuke them hard enough, there is nothing to nuke back.
If you have 1 Macro cannon at each sinde (cold war scenario) the macro cannon which goes first will probably win. In an "A Bomb" scenario both sides lose.

[Denzark]

Umm, I thought the meta was Tau/Eldar/Coteaz everywhere. Or Screamerstar. And then along comes D/Void/AAA for armies that couldn't deal with point 'n' click netlists.

And so the previously untouchables now aren't. Sounds like a change in meta to me.

[Mr Mystery]

Sounds like sour grapes, hence the push to establish the false impression the entire gaming community rejects playing with big boy's toys.

[Charon]

Umm, I thought the meta was Tau/Eldar/Coteaz everywhere. Or Screamerstar. And then along comes D/Void/AAA for armies that couldn't deal with point 'n' click netlists.

And so the previously untouchables now aren't. Sounds like a change in meta to me.

And what does prevent Tau/Eldar/Coteaz/Screamerstar from taking D/Void/AAA?
The problem in this is that the thinking stops at "D kills deathstars!". A strong army can still pick a D weapon. Jetseers are no thing anymore? Damn... oh wait let me grab this D Weapon and more Serpents!
These things are not only for armies that couldn't deal with. These things are also for armies which are also strong without them. Taudar gunline with D Weapon and movement impairing battlefield sections? Oh yes please...

[Mr Mystery]

Everyone has access to the Strongholds.

Issue?

[Charon]

According to the used line of arguments this seems to be an issue...
like this one

And then along comes D/Void/AAA for armies that couldn't deal with point 'n' click netlists.

Its not "for armies that couldnt deal...". Its for every army.
In the current edition gunlines are very powerful. Stronghold makes shooty armies (gunlines) even more powerful.
Its not that that poor underpowered melee orc player which suddenly gains more punch through strongholds. Its the Tau player who was obliterating the orc already before who got a big buff.

As my point stands Stronghold is very valuable in campains, fixed settings and consent games. Its not a thing you wanna drop on an unexpecting player (unless you are "that type" of player)

[Bigred]

Poll added - how could I resist?

[YorkNecromancer]

I love the book. My only problem is with Macro Cannon being Str D, although I imagine come the rumoured 7th ed, things will be brought in line.



In this picture, Ken represents Taudar, Sagat is pure Tau, Ryu is Screamerstar and Zangief? He's that one guy who brought the orks he's been playing with since 1st edition. He's not giving them up for you or anyone.

Of course, those will change. Because, yes, the meta favours gunlines ATM. Before that it was Grey Knights. Before that, Marines. Before that, Ork Nob Bikers. Before that... There is always something which rules the roost. Remember when everyone was buying up Screamers because they were the best unit in the game, just prior to the new Daemon codex? Or when Purifiers just could not be stopped? Or when T7 2+ Carnifexes were the order of the day?

40K has been going since 1987. It has NEVER been balanced. It has never even been close to balanced. The people who tell you it was? The time of 'balance' they remember was that brief moment when their codex was the best.

Just enjoy the game for what it is. It'll get there in the end. Seriously, compare now to when GKs were the only show in town. Yeah, things are unbalanced, but they aren't as bad as those days were.

[Gleipnir]

So in standard play using the rules for Stronghold Assault you have a choice between an expensive Macro Cannon (D weapon) on a building(not a super heavy so any return D weapon fire that doesn't hit a void shield has a good chance of exploding it). A Void Shield Network of interlapping Void Shields that can absorb almost all small arms fire from outside thier 12" coverage area and help protect against D weapons, or a Fortification network to allow for more Anti Aircraft guns and cover. unless you are playing in games that permit more than 1 fortification you aren't getting all 3 abilities. To listen to folks it would seem you are getting all 3 at once if you use Stronghold Assault. It is only the overlapping Void Shield Generators combined with a Lord of War shooting a D weapons that seems overly powerful without its own easy answer apart from Deep Striking or charging under the Void Shield bubble, and as others pointed out these defensive and offensive options are available to everyone, so your opponent takes a D weapon you can put your Deathstar under a Void Generator bubble until you eliminate it with your other army options. Plus a Super-heavy packing D weapons plus a Void Shield Network isn't cheap points wise and can likely be eliminated by much less in points value Deep Striking and Fast Assault units and I personally think it just moves the meta to bringing as many Str 8 + Weapons as possible spread among as many different units as possible, rather than the current preferred version of putting as many heavy weapons in a unit as possible to take advantage of force multipliers.