Tyranid Codex

[DarkLink]

But the price of a genestealer with a toxin sac is mroe expensive than a SM, and if that SM has a pistol then has the same number of attacks. Basicly, no matter how many wounds you get, they're saving on a 3+ and we're saving on a 5+ and when we die we lose more points per model.

Are you really trying to say that Space Marines are better in CC than genestealers?

Space Marines shoot genestealers to death, and genestealers slaughter Space Marines in combat. If a Space Marines kills a genestealer, it's because of his bolter, probably not because of his bolt pistol.

That is not true. Poison attacks wound always on 4+ regardless of the toughness. So you hit T2 on 4+ and T8 as well. You can confirm this in the BRB.

Oh, wait, oops. Yeah, you hit T2 on a 4+ with re-rolls. My bad. So you hit T4 and below 75% of the the time, and T5+ 50% of the time.

[S0ULDU5T]

Are you really trying to say that Space Marines are better in CC than genestealers?

Better overall. A genestealer with toxin sacs is 17 points. Thats for a S4 T4 model with 2 attacks, 3 on the charge. They have no ranged weapon and only a 5+ armor save. So first point, a 5+ armor save on a 17 point 1 wound model sucks, period. Your not getting to reroll 1's becuase you don't have scything talons and even if you get more hits becuase of a higher WS, get more wounds becuase you get to reroll half your die rolls, your still having to crack 3+ armor saves - so they're saving 2/3 of those wounds. Now the SM attack back; half of their attacks hit (if they have a bolt pistol, same number of attacks), half of those hits wound, but a genestealer is only saving 1/3 of those wounds. This kinda evens things out until you consider that SM are actually cheaper, aren't fearless (fearless is a bad thing to me), have grenades and not at all taking into account the fact that SMs have ranged weaponry that ignores genestealer saves altogether.

Now you throw in that a hormoguant can't hold a candle to an orc boy since they too have a ranged weapon, furious charge, an extra attack, mob rule and T4 for the same point cost and what you get is that our infantry sucks.

The way I see it, the Tyranid army will be built around mediums and MC's with hardly any consideration given to the swarm idea outside of termagaunts for the obvious connects to Tervigons just becuase anything that can swarm seems like a horrible point sink.

Can anyone confirm as to wither the swarmlord has a regenerate option?

[Ferro]

Swarmlord does not have regen. He is a fixed statline unique character with no upgrade options. However, he does come standard with all 4 Tyrant psychic powers, one of which is a life-leaching shooting attack with a 12" range.

He is quite powerful, but equally expensive. If only he could live to make contact with the enemy, the day would be his.

[S0ULDU5T]

Swarmlord does not have regen. He is a fixed statline unique character with no upgrade options. However, he does come standard with all 4 Tyrant psychic powers, one of which is a life-leaching shooting attack with a 12" range.

He is quite powerful, but equally expensive. If only he could live to make contact with the enemy, the day would be his.

really, that hard to keep alive even with soaking up wounds with that power and sticking to cover?

[Raxximous]

Better overall. A genestealer with toxin sacs is 17 points. Thats for a S4 T4 model with 2 attacks, 3 on the charge. They have no ranged weapon and only a 5+ armor save. So first point, a 5+ armor save on a 17 point 1 wound model sucks, period. Your not getting to reroll 1's becuase you don't have scything talons and even if you get more hits becuase of a higher WS, get more wounds becuase you get to reroll half your die rolls, your still having to crack 3+ armor saves - so they're saving 2/3 of those wounds. Now the SM attack back; half of their attacks hit (if they have a bolt pistol, same number of attacks), half of those hits wound, but a genestealer is only saving 1/3 of those wounds. This kinda evens things out until you consider that SM are actually cheaper, aren't fearless (fearless is a bad thing to me), have grenades and not at all taking into account the fact that SMs have ranged weaponry that ignores genestealer saves altogether.

Now you throw in that a hormoguant can't hold a candle to an orc boy since they too have a ranged weapon, furious charge, an extra attack, mob rule and T4 for the same point cost and what you get is that our infantry sucks.

The way I see it, the Tyranid army will be built around mediums and MC's with hardly any consideration given to the swarm idea outside of termagaunts for the obvious connects to Tervigons just becuase anything that can swarm seems like a horrible point sink.

Can anyone confirm as to wither the swarmlord has a regenerate option?

Rending ignores armor, and with rerollable attacks chances are you will get a fine amount of rending. So the armor isn't really too big an issue.

At least from my experience.

[Vepr]

Our troops are still cannon fodder. That is just the way it is, the only thing that bothers me is that supporting our troops is still suicide for the medium and big bugs in synapse due to the fearless rules.

I don't think this dex is going to be as point and click as some of the other 5ed codices but it is not like it is a terrible dex it just has some internal balance issues. After running a bunch of test games though SW and IG seem like they might be an uphill battle. More test games needed.

[DarkLink]

Better overall. A genestealer with toxin sacs is 17 points. Thats for a S4 T4 model with 2 attacks, 3 on the charge. They have no ranged weapon and only a 5+ armor save. So first point, a 5+ armor save on a 17 point 1 wound model sucks, period. Your not getting to reroll 1's becuase you don't have scything talons and even if you get more hits becuase of a higher WS, get more wounds becuase you get to reroll half your die rolls, your still having to crack 3+ armor saves - so they're saving 2/3 of those wounds. Now the SM attack back; half of their attacks hit (if they have a bolt pistol, same number of attacks), half of those hits wound, but a genestealer is only saving 1/3 of those wounds. This kinda evens things out until you consider that SM are actually cheaper, aren't fearless (fearless is a bad thing to me), have grenades and not at all taking into account the fact that SMs have ranged weaponry that ignores genestealer saves altogether.

If a squad of genestealers assaults a unit of SM Tactical Marines, here's what happens:

We'll assume the same 17pt genestealers with a 10 stealer squad, and a 10 man tac squad with a PF on the sergeant.

Stealers hit on 3's, with 3 attacks each on the charge. That's 20 hits.
They wound on 4's, with rerolls, and any 6's ignore armor. That's 15 wounds total, of which 4.17 ignore armor.
Space Marines take saves. That's 7.7777 dead Marines. We'll assume the Sergeant with the PF survives.

Space Marines hit back. They have 1 attack each, because while they have bolt pistols they do not, in fact, have 2 CCW's and as such don't get bonus attacks like you seem to think.
There are 1.222 Marines left, hitting on 4's, wounding on 4's, granting a 5+ armor save. That's .20 dead genestealers.
The PF hits. 2 attacks, hits on 4's, wounds on 2's and ignores armor. Thats .8333 dead genestealers.

The Genestealers killed 7.7777 Marines, while the Marines killed 1.033 genestealers. Marines loose combat by 6.7 wounds. That means they almost certainly loose combat. Genestealers almost certainly overrun them thanks to I6, so the Marines instead take No Retreat wounds. That's 2.25 dead Marines, the rest of the squad.

As I said, Marines shoot genestealers dead, while genestealers eat Marines in combat. Not saying one's better than another overall, but genestealers are unquestionably better in CC than Marines.


And Fearless is only bad if you're loosing combat, which isn't something genestealers usually have to worry about. So it's not a disadvantage to them, really.

[S0ULDU5T]

If a squad of genestealers assaults a unit of SM Tactical Marines, here's what happens:

We'll assume the same 17pt genestealers with a 10 stealer squad, and a 10 man tac squad with a PF on the sergeant.

Stealers hit on 3's, with 3 attacks each on the charge. That's 20 hits.
They wound on 4's, with rerolls, and any 6's ignore armor. That's 15 wounds total, of which 4.17 ignore armor.
Space Marines take saves. That's 7.7777 dead Marines. We'll assume the Sergeant with the PF survives.

Space Marines hit back. They have 1 attack each, because while they have bolt pistols they do not, in fact, have 2 CCW's and as such don't get bonus attacks like you seem to think.
There are 1.222 Marines left, hitting on 4's, wounding on 4's, granting a 5+ armor save. That's .20 dead genestealers.
The PF hits. 2 attacks, hits on 4's, wounds on 2's and ignores armor. Thats .8333 dead genestealers.

The Genestealers killed 7.7777 Marines, while the Marines killed 1.033 genestealers. Marines loose combat by 6.7 wounds. That means they almost certainly loose combat. Genestealers almost certainly overrun them thanks to I6, so the Marines instead take No Retreat wounds. That's 2.25 dead Marines, the rest of the squad.

As I said, Marines shoot genestealers dead, while genestealers eat Marines in combat. Not saying one's better than another overall, but genestealers are unquestionably better in CC than Marines.


And Fearless is only bad if you're loosing combat, which isn't something genestealers usually have to worry about. So it's not a disadvantage to them, really.

Point taken. For the sake the curiosity, what are the numbers without toxin sacs? the question now becomes wither it's really worth equipping genestealers with them since it is kinda of an expensive upgrade.

[Deej]

If a squad of genestealers assaults a unit of SM Tactical Marines, here's what happens:

We'll assume the same 17pt genestealers with a 10 stealer squad, and a 10 man tac squad with a PF on the sergeant.

Stealers hit on 3's, with 3 attacks each on the charge. That's 20 hits.
They wound on 4's, with rerolls, and any 6's ignore armor. That's 15 wounds total, of which 4.17 ignore armor.
Space Marines take saves. That's 7.7777 dead Marines. We'll assume the Sergeant with the PF survives.

Space Marines hit back. They have 1 attack each, because while they have bolt pistols they do not, in fact, have 2 CCW's and as such don't get bonus attacks like you seem to think.
There are 1.222 Marines left, hitting on 4's, wounding on 4's, granting a 5+ armor save. That's .20 dead genestealers.
The PF hits. 2 attacks, hits on 4's, wounds on 2's and ignores armor. Thats .8333 dead genestealers.

The Genestealers killed 7.7777 Marines, while the Marines killed 1.033 genestealers. Marines loose combat by 6.7 wounds. That means they almost certainly loose combat. Genestealers almost certainly overrun them thanks to I6, so the Marines instead take No Retreat wounds. That's 2.25 dead Marines, the rest of the squad.

As I said, Marines shoot genestealers dead, while genestealers eat Marines in combat. Not saying one's better than another overall, but genestealers are unquestionably better in CC than Marines.


And Fearless is only bad if you're loosing combat, which isn't something genestealers usually have to worry about. So it's not a disadvantage to them, really.

Really great in depth analysis... But there's only one 'o' in losing

[DarkLink]

Point taken. For the sake the curiosity, what are the numbers without toxin sacs? the question now becomes wither it's really worth equipping genestealers with them since it is kinda of an expensive upgrade.

Let's see...
Genestealers get 20 hits, 10 wounds, 3.333 of which are rends, so a total of 5.5555 dead Marines.

Normal Marines get 2.222 hits back, 1.111 wounds and kill .74 genestealers. Powerfist hits once, and kills another .8333 genestealers, for a total of about 1.6 dead genestealers.

Marines lose combat by 4, so they probably still run, and another might die.

Interestingly enough, this might be better for the genestealers. Only slightly more genestealers die, but they will be in combat for two rounds instead of only one, leaving them protected from enemy shooting.

So ultimately, I'd have to say that, considering the metagame, it's actually now better to leave off the poison, since it will leave the genestealers protected in CC during the next enemy shooting phase. Not to mention the genestealers are cheaper that way.

So against Tactical Marines, leave off the poison and save the points for elsewhere.

Really great in depth analysis... But there's only one 'o' in losing

Everyone has to have a flaw