The Doom of Malantai

[Jwolf]

If Mr. Wolf wishes to maintain that 'removed from the table and placed aside' = out of the game in all respects, I'll allow it. I will also gladly accept killpoints for all the embarked units, which cannot disembark, shoot, give orders, or use psychic powers throughout the game. Hey, they're off the table.

I wish to maintain that they are off the table and can only affect and be affected as rules the specify. All of those instances actually have rules covering why your positionregarding them is invalid. I wish to maintain this because that's what the rules say; I'm simple like that.

I have officially grown bored of the discussion; certainly I'm aware of the arguments you have presented, as well as those presented by others, and I do not find them indicitative of even intent for the Doom to work as you suggest.

The list of things that work poorly if the basic rule is that units in vehicles can be damaged by outside forces that do not harm their vehicle is fairly large; we have good indication that GW considers it a given that models in transports cannot be directly attacked, with no indication that they think indirectly attacking is any better. I would require a much more explicit permission to affect embarked units in a hostile manner to consider this viable.

[Caldera02]

Ferro, by your logic a heavy flamer shooting at a battlewagon would wound the models inside, the battle wagon being an open topped vehicle. That is not allowed in this ruleset.

Right because it's a double standard. You should totally be able to hit the guys in an Open Toped vehicle. But then again there are silly rules with open toped vehicles such as all flamers in the vehicle can fire from the same point. "I can touch 3 of your models with this template, I have 10 flamers. That's 30 hits sir!" Models in the game can do this but a flamer or big shell landing on the open space of the vehicle does nothing to them? riiggghhhhttttt........

I think we just have to accept the fact that things like this are not intended but happen. Doom affecting units inside a vehicle falls under this same category in my opinion. It's messed up sure but so is that flamer issue I just mentioned.

Furthermore I believe that this argument will only lead to The Doom being banned in at the very least our local Tournaments lol.

[Ferro]

Ferro, by your logic a heavy flamer shooting at a battlewagon would wound the models inside, the battle wagon being an open topped vehicle. That is not allowed in this ruleset.

John, that's not my logic; not my stated position at all. You can't shoot models embarked in a vehicle or building. Models embarked cannot be shot at or assaulted directly. In all cases the vehicle takes the hit, and not the embarked passengers. We all agree, and I have never said anything contrary to this.

Nab: "Why wouldn't its passengers, though? An explosion is certainly not a "direct" attack, so page 79 doesn't apply." --well I disagree about it not being a direct attack, but this is all beside the point. Nab, I agree with you in every way... in every example you've come up with, we're on the same page. The embarked unit isn't effected by these things. All I'm asking is, where is the embarked unit?

If it's on the table and within 6", it's effected by this power simply by virtue of its location.

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I wish to maintain that they are off the table and can only affect and be affected as rules the specify. All of those instances actually have rules covering why your position regarding them is invalid.

That's not my position! Strawman again! Those are the necessary consequences of insisting that the unit is not on the table--precisely what you were arguing. Obviously that's nonsense, so obviously the unit is on the table.

I have officially grown bored of the discussion

Boo.

[Nabterayl]

Nab: "Why wouldn't its passengers, though? An explosion is certainly not a "direct" attack, so page 79 doesn't apply." --well I disagree about it not being a direct attack, but this is all beside the point. Nab, I agree with you in every way... in every example you've come up with, we're on the same page. The embarked unit isn't effected by these things. All I'm asking is, where is the embarked unit?

Why do you agree with me? My reasoning is that these things don't affect the embarked unit because it has no location. What's your reasoning?

By the way, I think CRP's point about the heavy flamers was that the building rules say that when an access point or fire point on a "building" lies under a template, the passengers of the "building" take d6 hits from the template weapon. However, as we all know, the same is not true for vehicles. I think CRP was offering this as a reason to doubt that the building rules can apply backwards to vehicles after all. That's relevant because, if one were to accept that point, it would leave one with no reason that passengers in a vehicle cannot be attacked - except if the embarked unit had no location.

[Ferro]

I agree Nab that these things don't effect embarked units. However, the units absolutely do have a location on the board. The end result is the same though, and a hundred more examples won't change that.

Thank you for explaining the template + building logic, I totally missed that. However, it still doesn't apply to this argument. No one is claiming that all building rules apply to transports... actually the flow is the other direction. Some of the transport rules apply to buildings. Yes, there's an exception for template weapons shooting a unit embarked in a building. Ok, but it doesn't change the logic of anything else going on here. What matters to me is that the unit is IN the building, not out in space somewhere, or in some metaphysical limbo.

...Same logic applies to -LD abilities to units inside vehicles. Example, does the broodlords -LD affect, say a rune priest inside said rhino?

Discuss.

Anyone? The Broodlord power initiates in his assualt phase and lasts until the end of the next player turn (trans.). So it's unlikely to be relevant to an embarked unit even if it does effect them. Yet, can it affect embarked units? Also:

Death Leaper; It's after me! Pick an enemy character at the start of the game. They are at -d3 Ld as long as the Death Leaper is alive.

I pick an enemy character. Don't tell me this doesn't work if that character is embarked. Don't even.

[Nabterayl]

The difference I see with Death Leaper, Ferro, is that his power isn't range-dependent. You nominate a model at the start of the game, it's affected for the entirety of the game.

The Doom's power is different. It asks you to figure out whether a unit is within 6" of the Doom or not. My contention, and Jwolf's contention, is that a unit embarked on a vehicle cannot be measured to because it has no location, even though it has a suite of specific rules that allow it to interact with respect to a model that does have a location (its transport).

To put it another way, the only rule we have that tells us how to measure to a unit tells us to measure to a model in that unit. With no models on the table, an embarked unit cannot be within 6" of the Doom (or a KFF, or a Culexus' aura, or a pariah's aura, etc.), because you cannot measure to the models.

As for brood lords, I don't have the new tyranid dex, so I can't answer that - how is the power worded?

[Ferro]

Au contrair, Nab. p 66 Embarking: If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its [the embarked units own] shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull.

Soul Sucker needs to measure a 6" range involving the embarked unit, so you measure to/from the hull to the base of the DOOM.

Seriously, how can you say the unit doesn't have a location? It's right there, in the transport, on the table. You see it, move it with your hands, shoot things out of its hatches.

--Someone walks up to you and sees that you've got Lysander and some termies on your side table (next to your Dr. Pepper and rulebook). He asks, "Hey, which land raider is Lysander in?" Do you answer a) <points a finger> "That one"; or b) "he's not in a land raider, he's over there next to my soda!"



Broodlord; Aura of Despair: Use at beginning of assault phase, requires psychic test. If successful, all enemy units within 12" suffer -1 Ld until the end of the following player turn (i.e thru the enemies turn and expires at your own next turn). Ability stacks if multiple broodlords apply it.

[Nabterayl]

Fair enough; I did indeed overlook that.

So ... what's your rationale for a vehicle explosion not affecting an embarked unit, then? Would Hammer of the Witches affect embarked psykers, in your view? Or a kustom force field give embarked units a cover save?

[Ferro]

I thought we've covered this already. You don't need a rationale for a vehicle explosion not affecting embarked units. Embarked units are not affected by shooting attacks, as per the rules. (Destroyed-explodes! = a shooting attack, p.67) The explosion could affect the vehicle, if only it were strong enough.

I'm not familiar with Hammer of Witches, but why would any embarked unit ever need to take cover saves? Ordinarily, it could never happen.

In general though, my answer is always going to be that codex trumps core rules. Whatever crazy thing it says you can do, you can do. That's what makes one army distinct from another, and keeps everything interesting.

I certainly would argue that the Death Leaper's ability works on an embarked character. And if something can affect embarked models, it overturns certain arguments made earlier in this thread. We'll see.

[Nabterayl]

I thought we've covered this already. You don't need a rationale for a vehicle explosion not affecting embarked units. Embarked units are not affected by shooting attacks, as per the rules. (Destroyed-explodes! = a shooting attack, p.67) The explosion could affect the vehicle, if only it were strong enough.

No, they aren't. If a passenger unit's own transport explodes, it's a shooting attack, or near enough. If any other vehicle explodes, the profile of the attack is different (p. 61), and it affects "models" in range. That's hardly a direct shooting attack, even if we do use the building rules to infer vehicle rules. Just like the Doom's ability, it's not targeted at anything, let alone the embarked unit.

I'm not familiar with Hammer of Witches, but why would any embarked unit ever need to take cover saves? Ordinarily, it could never happen.

Sure it could. Suppose a unit is embarked, and its transport explodes - does it get a cover save? What about in the example above, where a unit is embarked, a vehicle other than its transport explodes, and that hit affects the embarked unit?