Chapters potentially founded from Traitor geneseed?

[Magos Bellum]

Page Number?

Pages 138 and 140.

[OzDestro]

Great to see this idea back up and running!
I think the link between the Carcharodons and the pre-Heresy pre-"nails" World Eaters/ War Hounds has to be there.
It's too cool an idea not to go with!
Crusade-era War Hounds return from deep space to see their brethern turn to Chaos and the Imperium rebirths tham as Minotaurs or Carcharodons.


I wrote a fair bit about it here: [URL="http://Great to see this idea back up and running! I think the link between the Carcharodons and the pre-Heresy pre-"nails" World Eaters/ War Hounds has to be there. It's too cool an idea not to go with! Crusade-era War Hounds return from deep space to see their brethern turn to Chaos and the Imperium rebirths tham as Minotaurs or Carcharodons. I wrote a fair bit about it here: [url]http://www.ozdestro.com/blog/are-the-mysteriouscarcharodons-actually-war-hounds[/url] if you're interested."]http://www.ozdestro.com/blog/are-the-mysteriouscarcharodons-actually-war-hounds[/URL] if you're interested.

The pre-heresy/ Crusade era World Eaters never fell as such - so if they did return from deep space they would be horrified to see the carnage of the Horus Heresy and even willing to join in the Badab War against the traitor!

It is interesting that HH3 mentions the 19th legion though.

[MajorWesJanson]

That's a really good point. Loyalist Iron Warriors would be plausible, since they were so spread out. I can't imagine they'd be taken in by the Imperial Fists, so forming their own chapter would be the ideal plan.

Likely the Ultramarines adopted them. Just look at the Silver Skulls.

[Katharon]

It's all but stated outright in HH:3 Extermination, in the Raven Guard background section that the Charchardons are the successors of 19th Legion units that were effectively exiled from the legion when Corax took command for being a bit too bloodthirsty and ruthless.

OK, so you're referring to the old Legion Commander Arkhas Fal who was put in charge of a "nomad predation" fleet. There is also a reference to a "Pale Nomads Chapter" that was infamous for their group of "Deliverers," Astartes who favored the use of Tactical Dreadnought Armour and were noted for their furious close combat assaults (it's mentioned that even Horus favored them, before Corax was returned to XIXth's command).

However, it's not "stated outright" and there is no mention of the Carcharodons. The only connection is the "nomad predation fleet" designation, as it is also written in the IA: Badab War book. However the theory doesn't bear too much proof for them being Pre-Heresy era Raven Guard come back to the fold.

The Carcharodons are, apparently, quite pious and religious -- venerating the Emperor as a God as well as their gene-sire (something which the great majority of Chapters do not do). They apparently do similar practices that can be seen by the Black Templars, using votive papers and scrolls attached to their armor.

So while I agree, based on what the "Imperial Amour: The Badab War" says on the subject, that the Carcharodons are indeed a Chapter descendant of the Raven Guard -- I think it would be a mistake to say that they are the very same as those that Corax sent into the edges of space 10,000 years before. Far more likely they are a Chapter that was organized during the Scouring or shortly thereafter. Either way, based on their tactics and organization, I'd say that using the Black Templar rules for them would be fitting -- far more so than the regular Raven Guard rules.

[completeHook]

The Carcharodons have their own chapter tactics, they're pretty tasty. I like that they can only be desperate allies with Imperial forces, it is a good way to represent their fluff on the table.

From Forgeworld's Space Marine Chapter Tactics for 6th ed. 40k

[URL="http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/B/FWchaptertactics-v2.pdf"]http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/B/FWchaptertactics-v2.pdf[/URL]

The Carcharodons (Progenitors: Unknown)
Until their sudden arrival in the midst of the Badab Wars,
the sinister Carcharodons Chapter was little more than a
half forgotten legend, a terror of the outer dark who many
doubted existed until their bloody return. Their actions during
the battles to depose the Tyrant of Badab re-established their
reputation as chilling agents of slaughter and destruction, fit
only for the task of eradicating the enemies of the Emperor far
from the witnessing of sane men and women.

Reavers of the Outer Darkness: All models with Chapter
Tactics (Carcharodons) gain the Fear special rule. In addition,
any model in a Tactical squad with the Reavers of the Outer
Darkness Chapter Tactic special rule may exchange a boltgun
they are already equipped with for a close combat weapon
(eg, chainsword/combat blade) for free or be equipped with an
additional close combat weapon for +1 point per model. Such
changes must be represented on the model.

Blood Hunger: All units with Chapter Tactics (Carcharodons)
gain the Rage special rule after they have either destroyed an
enemy infantry unit (of any type) in an assault or forced one
to Fall Back. Place a suitable marker on any unit that gains
the Rage special rule due to Chapter Tactics (Carcharodons)
to indicate this has occurred. When one of these marked
units makes a Consolidation move, it must move towards
the nearest enemy unit that it is capable of damaging in an
assault.

A Space Marines force which uses this Chapter Tactic may only
ally or be allied with other Imperial armies, and in all cases
their relationship is that of Desperate Allies (see page 112 of
the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook)

[Haighus]

Having read through Book 3 Extermination's fluff on the Iron Warriors, I am now pretty sure that the geneseed of the Minotaurs comes from the Iron Warriors. As someone mentioned above, the tactics, Greek influence and preferred theatres of war matches very closely between the 2 forces. Not to mention there is confirmed loyalist Iron Warriors during the Heresy (the battle of Paramar in Book 3 is between Alpha Legion and loyalist Iron Warriors), and their extremly scattered deployment across the Galaxy lends itself to isolated pockets of loyalists surviving the Heresy and being remade into Chapters. I also find it hard to see Iron Warriors being folded into another legion- they had such a massive rift between the way their legion operated and therefore how they were perceived by all the other legions that I find it hard to see them being accepted into another- the Iron Warriors had nearly as big a rivalry with the Ultramarines as with the Fists, according to Book 3, so I doubt that they joined the Ultramarines at least. No, to my mind the surviving Iron Warriors would have formed their own Chapter(s), and the Minotaurs look fluff perfect to be one of them.

[Katharon]

The Carcharodons have their own chapter tactics, they're pretty tasty. I like that they can only be desperate allies with Imperial forces, it is a good way to represent their fluff on the table.

From Forgeworld's Space Marine Chapter Tactics for 6th ed. 40k

[URL="http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/B/FWchaptertactics-v2.pdf"]http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/B/FWchaptertactics-v2.pdf[/URL]

That's pretty cool. It still does match well with the Black Templar though, in their organizational style as much as with their special rules.

[Haighus]

That's pretty cool. It still does match well with the Black Templar though, in their organizational style as much as with their special rules.

Yeah, the main difference is that Carcharodons don't have the same notions of honour and single combat as the Black Templars- they have a predatory style of combat and view the enemy more as prey than a worthy opponent. This is actually reflected in the differences in Chapter Tactics too.

[Benjamin Blanchard]

On the rules, Carcharadons are almost the same as the HH World Eaters, each is getting a bonus USR when destroying units in close combat, Furious Charge for the WE and Rage for the Sharks. Each must consolidate after winning an assault, and the Carcharadons are the only vanilla chapter which can equip its tactical squads like the Legion's ones, with bolter pistol or double close combat weapons. So World Eaters.

For the Minotaurs, my guess is that, still looking on their rules, they are a mix between Emperor's Children (the Crusader USR, as well as the "Space Marines wanting to look like Custodians", remember the Phoenix Guard) and the Iron Warriors (no morale checks nor pinning tests, and the "we do the job others don't want and take a bitter pride doing it" behaviour).

I think that, as well as for the two missing Legions, this will remain shrouded in mystery by Games Workshop, even if the clues are getting more and more obvious each year, kinda like for guys like Ahriman "I'm may be against the Imperium as it is, but I'm still loyal to Humanity".

[Lord-Boofhead]

It's important to remember that there's a difference between lost traitor legion loyalists returning to the fold and deciding to forget where they came from - Blood Ravens and the aforementioned Carcharadons theory - and chapters founded from traitor geneseed in the post-Heresy era. The latter is pretty rare. Remember that the Imperium is a superstitious place, and they tend to believe that geneseed is a lot more determinative than it really is. Most of what I've read points to the idea that in actuality - except for the genetic flaws, of which betraying the Imperium is not one - geneseed is geneseed is geneseed, and it doesn't really matter where it comes from.belief.

Actually I thinkthe later is way more likely than the former which just smacks of special snowflakeism to me

And the Space Sharks are just 3rd founding Raven Successors who too far into the void/halo stars and went full Firefly reaver.

Its pretty clear in the fluff that the 21st Cursed founding was an attempt to test and see if the Traitor's geneseed was inherently corrupt and an attempt to fix some of flaws in the loyalist gene seed (the Lamenters and The Black Dragons)

Here is my guesses some wilder than the others.

World Eaters - Minotaurs
Deathguard - Sons of Anteus
Night Lords - Doom Warriors
Alpha Legion - Blood Gorgons ?
Thousand Sons - Blood Ravens
Word Bearers - Flame Falcons ?

I have no idea about the last 3 Legions who their 21st founding folks could be.

- - - Updated - - -

So while I agree, based on what the "Imperial Amour: The Badab War" says on the subject, that the Carcharodons are indeed a Chapter descendant of the Raven Guard -- I think it would be a mistake to say that they are the very same as those that Corax sent into the edges of space 10,000 years before. Far more likely they are a Chapter that was organized during the Scouring or shortly thereafter. Either way, based on their tactics and organization, I'd say that using the Black Templar rules for them would be fitting -- far more so than the regular Raven Guard rules.

Plus their physical appearance screams of the cloned replacements created during the heresy.

The Genetic experiments of that period to me explain why the Raven Guard have the most varied successors other than that of the Ultramarines...