Daemonicus Appropriatus.

[Mr Mystery]

Or some other clumsy latinised nonsense.

So, seems the new book is bringing new toys and abilities, including being able to much about with Daemons if you're a Psyker.

Given the general omnipresent nature of the Warp, and the risks of being a Psyker in the background, this isn't exactly against the background.

But....Ezekiel summoning a Bloodthirster? Just doesn't seem quite right to me. I see no reason why he couldn't summon a Bloodthirster, but I just can't get my head around why he would summon a Bloodthirster, or indeed any of the other Pantheonic daemons.

Yet.....we also know Daemons take their form from the expectations of Mortal minds... And we also know there are many more Gods in the Warp than just the big four. And let us not forget, the vast, vast majority of the Imperium is singularly ignorant when it comes to Daemons and Gods etc.

Now, put those things together, and what is stopping you from converting up or scratch building something a bit more stylistically fitting? A Daemon sure enough, but one whose form is heavily influenced by the expectations of the summoner?

Let's take Orks. Big gribbly Chaos Daemon? Doesn't really suit. But...[url=http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer/ORCS_AND_GOBLINS/ORC_ROGUE_IDOL.html]infusing the surrounding battlefield debris with sheer Orkiness to the point where it gets up and fighty?[/url]....that I can see!

Dark Angels.....they're kind of suspect as it is. Now, imagine one of [url=http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer/Warhammer_Monsters/MOURNGUL.html]these bad boys[/url], with a green stuff cowl?

Long as you're using existing rules, and reasonably sized model, you can work your way round the stylistically odd.

For Blood Angels? How about some kind of super sized Sanguinor type? A blazing angel, rather than something evil and gribbly?

Any other ideas?

[ElectricPaladin]

Before I judge, I want to see what the rules actually are. We know for example that there are both Santic and Maleific Daemonology powers. What does that mean? Who's going to get access to Daemonology? We don't know that either!

Personally, I kind of like the idea that Daemonlogy is Daemonology is Daemonology. The things in the warp are Daemons. You summon them. I kind of want them to look, well, Daemonic.

That said, I also kind of like the idea that the Daemons take on forms that are appropriate to the summoner... but I'd rather that appropriateness be mockery rather than flattery. The Warp is not a good place. Maybe it used to be, before the Old Ones weaponized it in their war against the Necrons. Maybe there was a time when the Warp gave you your desires without twisting them, before it was dominated by the Four... but that time is long gone. In my mind, if the Daemons summoned by the Dark Angels look like Dark Angels, they look Fallen. The things summoned by Blood Angels look like vampiric monstrosities. The things summoned by Iron Hands look like nightmares out of a Dark Mechanicus workshop. The things conjured by Orks look like weak and weedy Orks, although they are just as effective as any other Khornate Daemon.

And then sometimes the Four just say "screw you - I want to make you acknowledge what you're doing" and send you a pantheon Daemon.

That's my idea, anyway.

[Mr Mystery]

Good points well made.

I certainly agree that other than Orks (who just sort of manifest cool stuff anyways) there should be some kind of wrongness about the proxy model. Something to suggest that the summoner is perhaps turning a blind eye, or is glamoured as part of the ritual.

There's certainly far more to explore here than just plonking down a standard Daemon model

[White Tiger88]

As a Demon player i call BS on these rules...........If its possible to kill a 150pt herald to get a Bloodthirster that more or less makes the Demon Codex worthless to play....

[Mr Mystery]

Whatchoo' talkin' 'bout Whitey?

[This Dave]

I still like the theory in the Legion of the Damned codex that they're actually the Emperor's daemons. Space Marines are the image of the Emperor's wrath to the people of the Imperium so in times of great stress a Psyker or even a latent one unconsciously conjures them from the Warp.

While this would have more credence if they were vulnerable to the things Daemons are it would definitely fit in with the "race specific" daemons thing.

[Mr Mystery]

Could be race specific manifestations (as in it's actually a Bloodthirster, but some manifestations of the Emperor's Infinite Will), or it could just be a Daemon mucking around.

Ultimately anything is possible, because that's the way GW have built the Universe.

And let's consider the Warp further. We know Slaanesh is the youngest of the Big Four, being a mere 10,000ish years old (Fall of the Eldar occurred just prior to the Great Crusade), yet it's also stated Slaanesh has always existed. Because you know, it's the Warp, where cause does not follow effect. There's the theory that The Emperor is attempting to become a God, and that the Heresy may well have been planned and accounted for all along. So given that, is there anything to stop Future Emperor God Daemons manifesting in the present?

If you want it to be possible, it's totes possible

[ElectricPaladin]

Additionally, I want to add that for some armies, Daemons-as-Daemons are supremely appropriate. For example, I really hope that my radical Ordo Malleus Inquisitor can summon straight-up Daemons. I will totally buy a box of Daemons (once I figure out which is best) to summon, and I will be happy about it. Because it's awesome.

[Mr Mystery]

The joy of the summoning? My guess is you can pick and choose which type of Daemon it is you summon. So if you need a meatshield? Plague Bearers. Some sod being a spoilsport on an objective and in need of a shoeing? Bloodletters.

So on, and so forth

[Haighus]

I think the general idea of this makes sense, although Gork and Mork are also very strong gods, so I would imagine any ork summoned daemon would be suitably strong and Orky.

On a slightly different point, if the Legion of the Damned are the Emperor's daemons, then the anti-daemon stuff probably wouldn't affect them still, because they are still pure and infused with the Emperor's will.