ASF reroll interaction.

[Mr Mystery]

Have you tried making your point clearer? Because I'm not sure anyone knows what your query actually is?

[Kim Boisen]

To simplify, I believe he's looking for the question to this:

Model A with I9, ASF, Hand weapon
vs.
Model B with I2, ASF, Great Weapon

Does Model A get a reroll?

[Kim Boisen]

Anyway, the ASF rule clearly states that the initiative just needs to be EQUAL or higher to grant re-rolls on misses. It also clearly states that if both models have ASF, neither gets a re-roll.

So the question is; does a Great Weapon counteract the benefits of ASF to such a degree that an opposing model with ASF and sufficient initiative gets a re-roll? Or does he just get to strike first? - which he would get to do even if he had lower initiative.
So the contention of the OP is: Obviously the Great Weapon model gets the full benefit of his initiative, shouldn't the non-GW model get the full benefit too?

[Mr Mystery]

No.

ASF and a Great Weapon means you have both ASF and ASL. They cancel each other's effects, but not each other's presence.

[Wildeybeast]

It's taken me awhile to figure through this, but I'm pretty sure Kelshin is correct. Tbh, I've never had anyone tell me that an asf unit can't get rolls against an asf and asl unit and I don't think it is much of an issue as it hasn't been Faqed, but my logic follows like this.

Anyone trying to claim they don't get rerolls hits a logic failure. You are saying the unit still has the asf rule, but it doesn't apply due to asl. So then it doesn't apply, and none of the rules listed under asl apply, including the section about not getting rerolls.

The second you try to 'turn on' part of the asl rules and claim the asl unit don't get rerolls because the GW unit still has asf, you have to turn on all of them and they strike simultaneously. Which conflicts with the 'striking in initiative order' and/or the striking last bits of asl. And if we are arguing that asl is still there and does matter, you have to do the same with asl and apply all those rules, so you end up with a situation where you have two units fighting first, simultaneously, at I order and last. Which is utter nonsense.

So, we have to argue that regardless of whether or not they still technically have asf, it doesn't apply to the GW unit. To all intents and purposes, they don't have it and it doesn't apply. They fight as if they have neither rule, so the asf unit gets it's rerolls. Anyone claiming otherwise is logically flawed as far as I can see.

[Wildeybeast]

No.

ASF and a Great Weapon means you have both ASF and ASL. They cancel each other's effects, but not each other's presence.

With respect mate, I think you missed Kelshin's point. He isn't contesting that. What he's saying is that it doesn't matter whether it's there or not; the effects don't apply, none of them. So anyone who tries to claim that the asf unit doesn't get rerolls is wrong, since the GW unit effectively can't have asl. Any attempts to claim otherwise hit the logic mess and meandered through above.

[Theik]

Guy A had ASF and i4
Guy B has ASF, i4 and a great weapon, giving him ASL

Rules state ASF and ASL cancel eachother out, so B has i4 and no special rules

Guy A strikes first at i11 with rerolls, guy B strikes second at i4 without rerolls.

So yes, you are right, Kelshin

[Learn2Eel]

I've been playing it Kelshin's way since I started Warhammer Fantasy with High Elves two years ago. Always Strikes First and Always Strikes Last completely cancel each other out, so a model with Always Strikes First attacking a model that lost their Always Strikes First due to also having Always Strikes Last would indeed get the re-rolls based on Initiative values.

[King Chud]

Mr. Mystery covered ASF correctly. If you are looking to get your wood elf rangers to strike at the same time as dark elf witches, simply go with the Lore of Light. I think its the spell timewarp that grants ASF to a unit. The rangers would be at I characteristic for striking originally, but then would get ASF because of the spell. Any great weapon with ASF is always a frightening thing. Dark elves don't have access to Lore of Light, thank god. Their executioners have to be the meanest unit in the game, once you give them frenzy, and extra frenzy upgrades, that's more than 50 attacks of S 6 in a horde of them. They definitely can tear down an Empire calvary horde or a horde of Ironguts.

With all due respect, Mr. Mystery. you are SO far off base on what I'm talking about, Im really not sure you even read anything of what I said. Not one word. Literally, Initiative is not a factor in what I'm talking about AT ALL. Not even a little. I KNOW how the initiative interacts within the rule. That's not the discussion.

Also, to correct you for a second time, ASF re-rolls are EQUAL to or higher not just higher.

Seriously, you're way off on what I'm talking about. Although interestingly, I think you're actually agreeing with my point in an extremely roundabout way.

[Wildeybeast]

What? What are you actually talking about? You want to cast a spell that gives asf to a unit that already has asf. aside from that being totally redundant because they already have asf, it would still be cancelled out by the asl on the great weapons. The light spell that gives I10 would be useful, but not the asl one.