People who are confused about Space marines useing Daemonolgy

[Xaric]

Who here played world of warcraft do you remember what Arthus did? His quotes? He would sacrifice everything to protect his homeland now think of this but replace Arthus with a librarian in his dire moment seeing all his battle brothers getting killed by the enemy Dire times call for Dire actions even if his soul is the price to pay to protect his battle brothers.

Also the end of the game Space Marine if you compleated it some space marines follow the codex as a set of guidlines to shape them but its what they do with the guidlines is what truely defines a space marine.

There you go a fluffy means to using daemonology as a Space marine

[deinol]

Yes... claim the power Tzeentch offers. Think of the good you'll be able to do!

It's that kind of thinking that leads to chaos space marines. And I guess why Gray Knights seem to fight Space Marines so often.

[interrogator_chaplain]

Grey Knights being able to use Daemonology, from a fluff perspective, is stupid awful. Going against literally everything ever written about them, only if you take everything written about them out of consideration can you forge that narrative. (But then again there are rumblings about Blood Angels getting units who've succumbed to The Rage and then came back, so yeah, if that's true, we may go from the era of playing fast and loose with the rules, to playing fast and loose with the fluff.)

That being said, Space Marines fall from grace all the time. Time honoured plot point that goes back to the 31st Millenium. Anything from the whispers of the Warp corrupting the soul, to a malignant daemon possessing the Librarian, the misguided ideals of using the weapons of the enemy against them or just a good old accident due to the random and Chaotic nature of the warp, are potential explanations for a Librarian to summon forth the denizens of hell.

Besides, these are the things that happen during the battle. Who knows what happens to the Librarian after the battle ends?

[Mr Mystery]

Remember folks. It's a sandbox galaxy we've been given to play in.

Wouldn't is not the same as couldn't. And if it saves a planet....

[ElectricPaladin]

I do think that the view of "daemonology inevitably leads to corruption" is patently false. We have several examples - including the venerable Inquisitor Eisenhorn - of characters who use Chaos to fight Chaos. It's certainly not a wise tactic, but it's clearly more complicated than "he's a witch - burn him!"

[Lord Asterion]

We don't even know for sure which Factions will have access to which powers and how they will cast them

[interrogator_chaplain]

In the case of Grey Knights, Daemonology should without question equal corruption, it goes against everything ever written about them officially.

But as stated above, who knows what happens to the Librarian after the game? Is he charismatic enough that he can convince his brothers what he did was right? The fact that the Librarian called upon a group of Flesh Hounds to route a warband of Emperor's Children doesn't immediately cause his brothers to turn on him, perhaps he wins them over with an argument of fighting fire with fire?

Perhaps immediately after the guns fall silent the Reclusiarch has the Librarian executed.

Perhaps he's given a penitence crusade.

Perhaps he turns the daemons on his brothers when they don't understand, and carries on a misunderstood personal crusade against Chaos.

The outcomes and reasons are as compelling as they are varied. There's never black and white in the 41st Millenium, only grimdark shades of grey.

[completeHook]

But the Imperium is a dogmatic theocratic dictatorship.

The Inquisition burn whole worlds when they feel they need to, Marines will do they same. Billions of lives aren't worth making a deal with ruinous powers for according to the Imperium, it's kind of their thing.

This would be like bringing out a new alien mercenary faction and letting them ally as battle brothers with Imperial forces. Xenos and Heretics are for purging, that's what the citizens of the Imperium learn at their mothers knee, it's their religion. It's like if the Mechanicus decided that Crisis Battlesuits where actually pretty nifty and the sort of thing they really should be making.

The scenarios being outlined so far are exceptions to the rule, but having those exceptions in the core rules, so something that happens a lot then stops being exceptional - it becomes normal. If every time you field your Ultramarines you end up summoning a Keeper of Secrets (because that's the one you own) then you may as start glueing spikes on them because they not Ultramarines any more.

(hope no-one noticed the schoolboy error about the BT's there...)

[ElectricPaladin]

But the Imperium is a dogmatic theocratic dictatorship.

The Inquisition burn whole worlds when they feel they need to, Marines will do they same. Billions of lives aren't worth making a deal with ruinous powers for according to the Imperium, it's kind of their thing.

This would be like bringing out a new alien mercenary faction and letting them ally as battle brothers with Imperial forces. Xenos and Heretics are for purging, that's what the citizens of the Imperium learn at their mothers knee, it's their religion. It's like if the Mechanicus decided that Crisis Battlesuits where actually pretty nifty and the sort of thing they really should be making.

The scenarios being outlined so far are exceptions to the rule, but having those exceptions in the core rules, so something that happens a lot then stops being exceptional - it becomes normal. If every time you field your Black Templars you end up summoning a Keeper of Secrets (because that's the one you own) then you may as start glueing spikes on them because they not Black Templars any more.

But the Space Marines aren't part of the Imperium. They aren't theocrats - heck, most of them are transhumanist atheists. You are painting a pretty deep setting with an incredibly broad brush.

I agree that the Black Templars probably shouldn't be summoning Daemons; luckily they won't be. Black Templars can't take Librarians.

As far as other armies go... look, I think GW has been pretty clear that they view this as closer to a competitive roleplaying game than a true, hard-minded, tactical wargame. All that "Forge the Narrative" stuff, the frantic pace, the possibility of army lists that are truly broken and un-fun. Your army isn't meant to be optimized and cut-throat; it's meant to be a character.

If you don't think that your army would summon Daemons, then don't summon Daemons. Do something else.

- - - Updated - - -

(hope no-one noticed the schoolboy error about the BT's there...)

Too late!

Honestly, I don't think that Ultramarines are a much better example. The Ultramarines are a super atheist, super transhuman First Founding chapter. I can totally see Tigirius summoning a Daemon because he's not superstitious about what this thing is. It's a phantom of the immaterium, made of coagulated sentient passion, and he can dominate it into doing his bidding because his mind is stronger than its. I'm not saying he would actually do it - he seems much more cautious than that, from what little I know of him - but he's not a loyal member of the Imperial Cult. It's more complicated than that.

[Lord Asterion]

But the Imperium is a dogmatic theocratic dictatorship.

The Inquisition burn whole worlds when they feel they need to, Marines will do they same. Billions of lives aren't worth making a deal with ruinous powers for according to the Imperium, it's kind of their thing.

This would be like bringing out a new alien mercenary faction and letting them ally as battle brothers with Imperial forces. Xenos and Heretics are for purging, that's what the citizens of the Imperium learn at their mothers knee, it's their religion. It's like if the Mechanicus decided that Crisis Battlesuits where actually pretty nifty and the sort of thing they really should be making.

The scenarios being outlined so far are exceptions to the rule, but having those exceptions in the core rules, so something that happens a lot then stops being exceptional - it becomes normal. If every time you field your Black Templars you end up summoning a Keeper of Secrets (because that's the one you own) then you may as start glueing spikes on them because they not Black Templars any more.

It depends how you're narrative is, if every game with the Black Templar army is its own thing, the only time this particular army fought, a moment in time when the black templars (although they don't have access to psykers, but we'll run with it.) are desperate enough to call on the most forbidden of powers and it has only happened once in the history of the Chapter, then its not so bad, its one instance of the end justifing the means, maybe that whole company was subsequently destroyed by an Inquisitor, maybe it kicked off a massive war as the company splits from the Templars and goes renegade or tries to redeem itself in the eyes of the emperor? Its a great start to a campaign or your own narrative.

If its in a campaign and your army is constantly using the Maleific powers (presuming it could) then again, its just another chance to establish a narrative, you could reflect their nature in the way your list evolves over the campaign, gradually becoming more corrupted as they embrace the power of daemonic power.

Its a game designed to be a story telling device and this just gives you more chances to tell your story, if you don't think Space Marines should use these powers, don't use them, know that your Marines are steadfast in their hatred of the daemon and the heretic.