Units in the penalty box - Strike 3, you're out

[Old_Paladin]

Orks:
Weirdboy - sorry, with a Warlord, SAG-mek and KFF-mek (and special characters); you're just too random.
Flash Gits and artillery batteries - too random or soft; there's battlewagons and boomguns to buy.
Mega-nobs: 40 point powerklaws and 2+ armour, looking pretty sweet; wait... no doc... no invuln... slow... hmm, maybe not.

on a differnt note: I like tankbustas. Cheapest rokkits in the army and bombsquigs (basically a single-use BS:5 rokkit), and I love the background, "we'z gettin' tanked!"

[Herald of Nurgle]

Plague marines. They're so expensive that you are outnumbered three to one or worse and they get whittled down by enemy fire before they accomplish anything. Even putting them in rhinos doesn't help, because those get blown up on the first or second turn.

Really? From personal experience...

[Old_Paladin]

Plague marines. They're so expensive that you are outnumbered three to one or worse and they get whittled down by enemy fire before they accomplish anything. Even putting them in rhinos doesn't help, because those get blown up on the first or second turn.

OK, I have to jump on this one too.

Really? Aren't they like 25 points each. For the best troops in the game. To be outnumbers 3-1, you're looking at 8 point or less troops; that are barely going to be able to hurt them. Statistically, you need to get in 18 hits with strength 4 to kill 1! That's about 15 marines, or 20 eldar guardians rapid firing... to kill one PM (on average).

Give them plasmaguns. It's great firepower, and on the overheat, they have to fail two saves.

[darth_papi76]

I really like commissar but I always seem to leave them out because I'm trying to fit in as many infantry models as I can.

[Herald of Nurgle]

OK, I have to jump on this one too.

Really? Aren't they like 25 points each. For the best troops in the game. To be outnumbers 3-1, you're looking at 8 point or less troops; that are barely going to be able to hurt them. Statistically, you need to get in 18 hits with strength 4 to kill 1! That's about 15 marines, or 20 eldar guardians rapid firing... to kill one PM (on average).

Give them plasmaguns. It's great firepower, and on the overheat, they have to fail two saves.

Actually, it's worse than that. You need to find a unit that has an average cost of 7.6(rec) points for it to be a 3-1 thing. Hmm, that means you're looking at Ork Boyz (which will be eaten by Plague Marines), or Infantry Platoons (See above, only worse). I've actually played one Apocalypse game where 28 Plague Marines forced the same Endless Swarm to return twice or three times over the course of the game - that's Termagaunts and Hormagaunts, which are costing more than 3-1.

Literally, until an army can get a force of Monstrous Creatures for, say, 50 per model (cough daemons cough), this 3-1 outnumber will not matter. Oh, wait, then I get two PM each.

Luck it or Hammer it. PM don't give a damn. How about we then compare them to Thousand Sons - the other 23 point cult troop. Hmm, which is better? Oh, wait, until you get to the 1000 vs. 777, the Plague Marines beat the multi coloured dust out of them.

No joke.

Fun fun.

[Cthulhu]

Actually, I'm not wildly enamored of Plague Marines myself, though I will admit they can be good, but I believe how they're packaged is a pretty key part of the equation. For example, they pretty much have to be in a Rhino, which limits them to ten man squads, the Rhino ends up having to have a few points spent on it since if you're going to buy Extra Armour why aren't you buying Daemonic Possession for five more points.

So ultimately, you end up spending ~300 points for a ten man squad in a Rhino, which is no small amount of points (not that the CSM codex is handing out bargains, but hey).

I have been running some experiments with twenty man CSM squads with the Icon of Nurgle and 2 Melta guns and have been pretty successful with them, although the problem with them is that the size of the squad limits the tactical options open to them, ie you pretty much have to rush across the board to engage your enemy, which can be problematic against some armies.

What's my point? Ultimately, my point is that T5 and LD10 will get you a long ways at a savings of about 5.5 points per model.

[Cthulhu]

I've actually played one Apocalypse game where 28 Plague Marines forced the same Endless Swarm to return twice or three times over the course of the game - that's Termagaunts and Hormagaunts, which are costing more than 3-1.

On this note, fifth edition rules for fearless models are full of fail for Tyranid mobs. Rules for Hive Mind need serious help for the next Tyranid codex, until such time my nids will continue to gather dust in the garage.

[Lord Sandwich]

Actually, I'm not wildly enamored of Plague Marines myself, though I will admit they can be good, but I believe how they're packaged is a pretty key part of the equation. For example, they pretty much have to be in a Rhino, which limits them to ten man squads, the Rhino ends up having to have a few points spent on it since if you're going to buy Extra Armour why aren't you buying Daemonic Possession for five more points.

So ultimately, you end up spending ~300 points for a ten man squad in a Rhino, which is no small amount of points (not that the CSM codex is handing out bargains, but hey).

I have been running some experiments with twenty man CSM squads with the Icon of Nurgle and 2 Melta guns and have been pretty successful with them, although the problem with them is that the size of the squad limits the tactical options open to them, ie you pretty much have to rush across the board to engage your enemy, which can be problematic against some armies.

What's my point? Ultimately, my point is that T5 and LD10 will get you a long ways at a savings of about 5.5 points per model.

Why buy Extra Armor and Possession? If you just roll in the Rhino, then you really don't need any upgrades to it. Oh, and 300 points for a ten man squad in a Rhino isn't too bad -- I pay 235 points for a Tac Squad in a Rhino, and Plague Marines are far superior, especially given that a 300 point squad would entitle a PF and a pair of flamers. Not a bad loadout.

Twenty man squads? You... HAVE played against mech before, right? There's no way you'll catch anything, ever. Once you consider that even standing still you get as much firepower as a rapid firing Tac squad, minus heavy weapons, it becomes pretty apparent that such squads are quite poor.

Anyway, back on topic.

Marines
Devastators - Sorry, you bring a lot of heavy weapons, but look at that price tag.
Vanguard - Unless you're running them absolutely bare-bones in a Rhino, they're overpriced.
Predators - They're either pricey or they can't kill anything.

[Aegis]

For Witch Hunters (aside from what was already mentioned):
- Death Cult Assassins, they just give away kill points too easily.

Gotta disagree on this one. When used effectively, DCA's can wreck units. Of course, charging them in on their lonesome is suicide, and then yes, easy KP's. However, if you hold off on the trigger finger, and chose your timing right, I have had DCA's turn the tide of battles for me.

Remember, they are not assault units, rather they are better at disrupting enemy plans, and making it easy for the rest of your force to clean up.

[Cthulhu]

Twenty man squads? You... HAVE played against mech before, right? There's no way you'll catch anything, ever. Once you consider that even standing still you get as much firepower as a rapid firing Tac squad, minus heavy weapons, it becomes pretty apparent that such squads are quite poor.

I play against mech more or less all the time these days. The nice thing about a 20 man troop squad is that a) your opponent has no choice but to try to kill it and b) it will take them a long time to do it and c) if they're focusing on killing that squad they aren't shooting at your heavy support.

By the way, one 20 man squad can hold more than one objective quite easily, which is why when I run 20 man squads, I usually run two at least. That being said, they have their own set of problems, which is why I don't run them all the time.