Oh how GW has failed me.....Let me count the ways (7 of them in honor of 7th ed)

[DarkLink]

"Beer and pretzels" is a shorthand for a light-hearted game, not "this only makes sense if you're drunk".

I know, I was being obtuse. Besides, it was Frontline Gaming, some of the biggest proponents of competitive 40k, that brought about Beerhammer.

[Brenlak]

Maybe it's just me but I think "light-hearted" and "game" fit very nicely together. Life is to serious to be taken seriously and we are pretty much playing with toys. You can be competitive without being a knob.

[Patrick Boyle]

Thanks for the response DarkLink: I think your standards there are reasonable. I don't even disagree with you very much; I just care much less about those things.

"you're literally saying you have to be drinking to enjoy it"

Nah: I think it's more a description of the kind of tone where you're both playing to enjoy it and aren't too concerned about the result or any issues which arise (and I've never played a game without at least one rules query!). "Beer and pretzels" is a shorthand for a light-hearted game, not "this only makes sense if you're drunk".

(And yeah, I know that hardcore tournament players and WAAC types are, in fact, having fun as a primary activity. )

My problem with this line of thinking is why do the casual players of 40k think this and balance are somehow mutually exclusive? I've probably even already essentially posted this in this thread already, as I know I've said it a few times the last week in varioud bols topics, but I just want a game where I feel like I'm not handicapping myself taking Codex Marines without bikers or Grav centurions. If what I want to play is a lighthearted game I can sit down and play a 30-60 min game of X-Wing miniatures, or Android: Netrunner, where the rules are clear with regular FAQs, the factions are all relatively balanced, and my time is spent making decisions and playing the game, rather than the clunky 2 hour exercise that is Warhammer 40k where more often than not I'm just going to get curbstomped by a book that happens to have better rules than I do. I still enjoy painting my 40k minis and reading books and video games and what not but I've been actually playing 40k less and less often because it's just not fun anymore, most of the time, it's a chore. I so far can't see 7th doing anything to change that.

[Brenlak]

I wish it was more balanced too, guess were lucky around here that not to many of our regular scene take advantage of this imbalance. And I totally get you on the actual playing time compared to time spent flipping through rulebooks. We are just gonna ease into it and see what happens, what else can you do? These babies loose half thier value when you drive them off the lot, X-Wing you can still get more of your money back. Is that the way GW thinks now? "he's got waaaaaaaaay to much plastic crack, he won't quit, just thow some stuff together and he will buy it". GW forgot that real crackheads have a poor memory and a shorter life span than there Plasticrackheads.

[WickedGood]

After thinking about this for a bit I think I have figured out why I am so upset at GW. 40K was a game to me. Games require balance. Without balance they are just toys. I am too old to be interested in playing with toys. I am interested in playing a game. Sure I can meet with my buddies and negotiate a set of rules to play by but part of the reason I bought these miniatures was that someone else was supposed to be a third party and set the rules for us. How fracking lazy is it that GW expects me to rewrite their rules for them? Can a group of smart people get together and fundamentally fix 40K. Maybe..... I am having a real hard time coming up with something that works off of the core rules but doesn't fundamentally break the game just as bad. The issue with this approach is that this will need to be an ongoing effort and the tournament community at ;arge will have to not only recognize this as the ruleset to play by but even my pick up games at my LGS will have to be bound by them. Personally, I think people that go down this route will be like those sad Battletech guys playing the 20 year old pre-clan edition I see every once in a while. I think you need actual support from the games designer and we all know the second you put 40K alternaive rules on something GW lawyers will come smash your doors in with a lawsuit.

Got a little preachy in there sorry about that. My original argument stands. a game requires balance. 40K is not balanced. thus 40k is not a game. It is a set of toy's just like the GI Joe's I bought when I was 10.

[skaroreg]

Ha! You just described Warmachine (my favorite game)! I love 40K but (rules-wise) it doesn't hold a torch to WarmHordes.

That was my exact thought when I read that rule set