Easy way to fix the psyker phase for now.

[Xaric]

Correction Horrors are only ever ML1 but with magic made manifest it can grant them up to 3 warp charges

But I have seen people neglecting the fact that a unit can only ever cast a ability once so for example if your horrors have say summoning and a herald of tzeentch has summoning you can only ever cast that once for that unit per psyker phase.

[Mr Mystery]

Fair enough. Will have to check my Daemon book when I get home.

Even so. Have you any idea of the points it takes to get Daemons up to a reasonable number of dice for the summoning horde of doom? One example posted up? 1,500 points for 28 dice. That's all either Lords of Change, Heralds of Tzeentch, Daemon Prince's of Tzeentch, and some Horrors. None of that lot is particularly tricky to kill, especially as in order for the whole summoning thing to work you need to focus your efforts on it, meaning you're less likely to be casting Blessings to toughen up your own somewhat 'meh' troops. And when it does work? For 1,500 points, I should think so too. After all, in a common 1,850 game, that's effectively 350 points of actual offense. Which, no prizes for spotting this one, should be dealt a swift spanking by your opponents 1,850 points.

Overall, loading up for the Psychic Phase is no different to loading up entirely for HTH or Shooting. It's a calculated risk, and works best when your opponent assumes defeat from the outset.

[Xaric]

Yay finaly someone who has sense for a discussion and does not act like a child because they did not get there own way i personaly agree on this Mr mystery after all daemons dont get a shooting phase but even if other players bring psykers atleast they can shoot as well as use psyker powers so to me sound balanced

[Mad Cat]

Possible ways to fix the 7th edition psychic phase would be one or more of the following options:


1. Change Invisibility. It is too powerful at the moment. A good method could be to make it a blessing that makes the enemy reroll hits against the unit in both combat and shooting. In effect it becomes the opposite of Prescience. The unit can still be targeted by blast weapons (although less accurately) and of course template weapons will be uneffected. In combat rerolls like Hatred or Prescience v Invisibility will cancel each other out. In the shooting phase Prescience, Guide and Twin Linked will do the same.

2. Put a maximum limit on Psy Dice such as D6+12 or D6+18. This would discourage too many Psykers in a force as you get diminishing returns. However in 6th edition 4 level three psykers could easily get off 11 of their 12 powers. In 7th edition D6+12 Dice wouldn't get off that many as you would need to put 2D6 into each power to get a reasonable chance of casting. Higher level powers need even more. The mass casting of Biomancy, Pyromancy and Divination isn't really the problem, it is the summoning daemons to get an extra 400 points a turn which can snowball as you summon more psykers for later turns. So we go on to option 3.

3. Put a limit on summoning per army (not per detachment) of 1 attempt per 1000 points (or part thereof)per turn and only allow 1 summoning of each type per turn. It would limit you to say 10 horrors and 5 fleshhounds in a 1850 point army which isn't too bad. Because of this limit casting would more likely work as you get to allocate more dice to the attempts. Also it becomes less desirable to roll on the Malific table as many times as you cannot spam them too much.

4. Prevent summoned daemons from summoning. Disallow those summoned units from rolling on the Malific table. The enemy can concentrate on killing your original units capable of summoning daemons. This works in a similar way to targeting the Necron spiders in a scarab farm list.


My personal preference would be to apply option 1 and option 3. I think these could be a decent and simple way of taking the excesses out of the 7th edition psychic phase.

[Xaric]

Disagree with number one due to it could be balanced for some army's but army's that are heavy relying on it could be a disadvantage

Agree with number two because army's that have a insane amount of psykers like in fantasy to prevent this they had a cap of 12

Agree and disagree as it would have the same effect as number one but agree because summoning addition amount of points to the total cost of the army allocation would feel unfair if that exceeds a threshold I would say you can't exceed 25% of your total army's points call this Summoner influence because too many would overwhelm the summoners control of his minions

for four i would say if the summoner dies all summoned daemons takes a perils of the warp test to indicate there summoners death

that's my imput

[Katharon]

This is retarded. I'm sorry but I need to say that off the bat. As it is now, having "Power Dice" is far more fair and evens the playing field for psykers across the whole spectrum of armies. The older behavior for executing psychic powers was, frankly, leaning towards those armies that were renown for being strong psykers (Eldar, CSM, Daemons, & SW) with high leadership across the board. But now, having to get a 4+ or higher on lot of dice to see if power goes off is more fair, random, and acutely represents the fickleness of the Warp.

If you're an army that doesn't get many psykers (Tau) then you're going to have to learn to start using even more tactics and targeting psykers the same way that we've always all gone after those Tyranid models that give them Synapse.

---

And remember about the whole daemon summoning craze that people are worried about: you still have to own the fricken models to field. You can't start setting down little marker beads and be like "hey, this is ten bloodletters." No models, no summoning. Easy solution.

(this is also why they put the summoning into the rules -- TO GET PEOPLE TO BUY MORE PLASTIC CRACK)

[Haighus]

Possible ways to fix the 7th edition psychic phase would be one or more of the following options:


1. Change Invisibility. It is too powerful at the moment. A good method could be to make it a blessing that makes the enemy reroll hits against the unit in both combat and shooting. In effect it becomes the opposite of Prescience. The unit can still be targeted by blast weapons (although less accurately) and of course template weapons will be uneffected. In combat rerolls like Hatred or Prescience v Invisibility will cancel each other out. In the shooting phase Prescience, Guide and Twin Linked will do the same.

2. Put a maximum limit on Psy Dice such as D6+12 or D6+18. This would discourage too many Psykers in a force as you get diminishing returns. However in 6th edition 4 level three psykers could easily get off 11 of their 12 powers. In 7th edition D6+12 Dice wouldn't get off that many as you would need to put 2D6 into each power to get a reasonable chance of casting. Higher level powers need even more. The mass casting of Biomancy, Pyromancy and Divination isn't really the problem, it is the summoning daemons to get an extra 400 points a turn which can snowball as you summon more psykers for later turns. So we go on to option 3.

3. Put a limit on summoning per army (not per detachment) of 1 attempt per 1000 points (or part thereof)per turn and only allow 1 summoning of each type per turn. It would limit you to say 10 horrors and 5 fleshhounds in a 1850 point army which isn't too bad. Because of this limit casting would more likely work as you get to allocate more dice to the attempts. Also it becomes less desirable to roll on the Malific table as many times as you cannot spam them too much.

4. Prevent summoned daemons from summoning. Disallow those summoned units from rolling on the Malific table. The enemy can concentrate on killing your original units capable of summoning daemons. This works in a similar way to targeting the Necron spiders in a scarab farm list.


My personal preference would be to apply option 1 and option 3. I think these could be a decent and simple way of taking the excesses out of the 7th edition psychic phase.

I like 4, that makes sense IMO, and Invisibility may need to be nerfed, but I don't like 2 and 3. Instead of 2, it would make more sense if you instead capped how many dice could be used to manifest an particular power, so no more than, say, 5 dice per power (and the same for Deny the Witch, as it stands, a very Psyker heavy army can prevent an army with a lone Psyker from pretty much using any powers at all). This means that an army of units like Horrors can still be a fluffy Tzeentch list using Witchfire powers and so on, because it has the Warp charge available to do so, but any one Psyker can't harness enough charge to effectively guarantee any particular keystone power going off. 5 dice, on average, won't successfully cast one of the summoning spells without re-rolls, but it isn't impossible, and that would make a greater risk aspect to the decision.
I think 3 is just covered better by 4 personally.

[Garma]

heh i know mr mystery but trying to resolve the issue of people with loads of mastary level ones psykers using abiltys such as summoning (3 warp charge) that are summoning pink horrors who are mastery lv 1 that can also use summoning to summon more pink horrors luckly a summoned daemon cant summon the turn it arrives but this is why people are claiming the new psyker phase is broken.

Don't demons (like demons of tzeentch) have to choose at least one power from their god table before rolling on another one? The summon power would bring in a unit of ten that could only roll on their tzeentch table thus not being able to roll on other one. I'd have to wait until I get home to confirm in my demon codex.

[Mr Mystery]

Nope. Not according to the FAQ (though remember, FAQs are often subject to change. Fittingly. When you think about it)

[Tudd Fudders]

I read these threads and sometimes I wonder how many people actually have played 7th edition yet.

In my past three games the psychic phase has been fine and kinda fun. I even played a game where some guy brought nothing but 7 GK Grandmasters and a land raider. He was able to roll for a whole deck worth if powers, and have 14 warp charges on the pull.

All that happen was that he PoTW almost every turn trying to pull of heavy magic combos and was sometimes easily denied.

As for this daemon abuse.... It honestly seems more like a problem people let happen instead of actively trying to counter it.