Competitive players to warhammer 40k are toxic to the overall game...

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Funny:

"5. Competitive players do not spend their time complaining about how the other half lives."

"This. IMO the toxic element in this hobby are the people who think it's okay to allow unfair situations to exist because they've bought into the GW drivel that "games not made for tournaments" means it's okay to have sloppy rules."

Do you guys read yourselves, sometimes?

Here's some truth: toxicity isn't coming from one playstyle or another (plenty of us in this thread have said, because we know, that actually they coexist not only in the playerbase but within individual players), it's coming from people who want to have an argument.

[silashand]

Funny:

"5. Competitive players do not spend their time complaining about how the other half lives."

"This. IMO the toxic element in this hobby are the people who think it's okay to allow unfair situations to exist because they've bought into the GW drivel that "games not made for tournaments" means it's okay to have sloppy rules."

Do you guys read yourselves, sometimes?

There's a difference between complaining about how one side plays the game and about their attitude toward other players. When someone says the game would be better off without such and such group then that's just plain BS regardless how you look at it. *That* is what is wrong with this hobby - one side thinks it pretty much owns the game and anyone who doesn't agree can just get out. You will note that no competitive player I have seen on this forum has made this statement, yet plenty of the other side has. As I noted (and you ignored), I don't care how anyone plays this game. I care when they try to exclude others from it because of some preconceived notion that their way is better.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Calling people a "toxic element" isn't exclusionary? Do we usually welcome toxins...?

I know it's right there in the OP, and that's why I don't like the OP or the title of this thread. All this rhetoric is overheated and overblown.

[Charon]

Calling people a "toxic element" isn't exclusionary? Do we usually welcome toxins...?

If you read carefully, he doesnt exclude players of all sorts but people who hate on players that enjoy the game in another way then them. Do you think these people are a contributing element that should be embraced rather than shunned?
And actually he is not even wrong about from which side the hate is coming. On this forum its always the same few guys who hop on any thread and hate on those who discuss rules or would like to have more consistent rules. And then talking about how they never would play against that waac competitive crowd which should leave the hobby immedeatly while refering to themselves as "decent and nice guys".

On a sidenote: yeah we welcome some toxins

[Cap'nSmurfs]

I don't necessarily disagree, but the tone is off if that's the point you're making. Responding to the OP with "I'm not poisonous! You're poisonous!" isn't getting us anywhere. And I'm sorry, but it isn't just one group that behaves badly on this.

[Charon]

No its no one group. Its a handful of members here that claim to belong to "that group".

[Cap'nSmurfs]

I think we agree that making people feel unwelcome should itself be unwelcome.

[Stone Edwards]

I feel it's an appropriate time to link to one of the best blogs I've seen on competitive gaming ever: [url]http://www.sirlin.net/[/url]

There's a lot of stuff on there, but I'll specifically mention this: [url]http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.html[/url]

He makes good points, but (especially in the comments) he also reinforces many of the stereotypes of WAAC players. Spamming the same move over and over is a lot like spamming the same unit, and honestly neither is very fun for most people. Sure it helps new tactics evolve to counter the spamming but this is only fun for that very small amount of players that have put in the time to get that skilled.

This is part of the problem when we talk about casual vs competitive. Competitive mind sets, such as described in the article, tend to focus on refining the game. Where as playing a game more casually tends to open it up more. Catering towards competitive players would limit the game quite a bit, which could ruin the casual gamers' fun, and catering to the casual crowd leads to something like what we have now which obviously upsets competitive players. Of course, as stated in the linked article, competitive players are the vast minority compared to play to have fun players. It seems GW is very aware of this has has acted accordingly.

[Caitsidhe]

I don't necessarily disagree, but the tone is off if that's the point you're making. Responding to the OP with "I'm not poisonous! You're poisonous!" isn't getting us anywhere. And I'm sorry, but it isn't just one group that behaves badly on this.

The problem is I said nothing of the sort. I pointed out the OP was trolling right for the get go with his subject title, and then I moved on to talk about the issues in general. I don't personally care what people play in the privacy of their own home. I don't care if people love the rules or hate them. I prefer to talk about the rules, however, and not the players. In general, the more competitive crowd are often baffled by the venom and bile directed at them by players who claim they don't go to tournaments, don't play against us, and think we are pond scum. It sounds crazy bigoted when you think about it that way. Why should they care about what we do, like or don't like about the rules, or whatever restrictions we decide to impose on ourselves collectively? We certainly don't care what they do, nor do we spend our time bashing them for doing it.

Competitive players want the game to be fair and consistent to involve more people. Competitive players are inclusive by nature. We are all for growing the community. There seems to be a faction that thinks this game should never be played except in a private garage or club and only with your close friends. I find that odd myself, but hey it is your garage and your private club. The weird factor is their outrage that we aren't doing the same. Earlier in the week some kind soul decides to tear into Goatboy with a venom I would associate with the KKK upon finding out minorities were moving into the neighborhood. The guy admitted he doesn't play at tournaments. He said he doesn't play with people like us. Even so, he apparently felt he knew Goatboy well enough to tear into him. I, on the other hand, have met Goatboy and watched him play. I have also watched and played with non-competitive types on a regular basis. I'd say about half of my games are with said people. Which of us is qualified to make remarks?

My own opinion, having played with all the supposed "sub-groups" is that they don't exist. There are just gamers. They are all competitive. Every now and then you run into that weird Saint (like spotting a unicorn) that really doesn't care if he wins or loses. Every now and then you run into an actual cheat. For the most part, gamers are the SAME at the table. They care about winning. They tend to have average to good manners. Away from the table, in these little make-believe cliques, people are often jerks attempting to make themselves feel more important by tearing others down. Most of the quacking voices on the internet exist merely because said individuals like the sound of their own voice. They like to see the color of their own thoughts and inflict them on you. Am I any different? You hear me talk about competitive gamers all the time and this supposed other series of groups. Yes, I'm different because I think you are full of it. You are all just as competitive as anyone else. The most obnoxious win at all costs players I have run into proclaimed themselves non-competitive, stated how they didn't care about winning, and disdained the tournament scene. That didn't prevent them from making the games with them miserable as they indulged in stretching the rules, sullen behavior when they were losing, and gloating when they were winning. Jerks are just jerks. It has nothing to do with any mythical grouping.

[Charon]

Catering towards competitive players would limit the game quite a bit, which could ruin the casual gamers' fun, and catering to the casual crowd leads to something like what we have now which obviously upsets competitive players.

This is the point I disagree on. For one the proclaimed "casual fun gamer" doesnt exist. Yes there are players that play for fun tossing their dice having a good time. Yes there are players that do that casually. Yes there are players that do both.
But they still play to win the game. And thus act competitive. They are not jerking around rules or write any hardcore list, but in the end they try to secure the mission objectives, they try to kill enemy units and try to keep their army alive. They dont do that out of coincidence, they try to win the game. Not at all costs. Maybe they allow you to reconsider a move or let you do your shooting again after you where eager to charge a unit and forgot about shooting (I know people who actually forget quite often)... but they still try to win.
If they throw a game on purpose and let you win it wont be fun. And it usually leaves bad feelings.
Also a thight ruleset does not mean a casual player must obey all rules at any cost. Ther could be basic rules, advanced rules and specialist rules covering more and more stuff. Also casual players tend to ignore rules anyways. Not because they agree on doing so, but because they forget about them. Its not bad to have a tight ruleset. You pick the ones you like and agree to ignore the ones you dont like (think about agreeing to ban SC, Allies, escalation, stronghold, forge world,...) thats catering to both "groups".
The reason we have sloppy rules is not because they want to cater to casual fun gamers (as even friendly built armies can be so horrendous unbalanced to eachother that the game ends on turn 2 and is no fun at all) but because they want to crank out as much stuff as possible at low development costs. Playtesting takes a termendous amount of time. Finetuning is a horrid never ending task.
Look at the patchnotes to any multifaction pc game which can be played competitive such as LoL, SC2, Dota,... they never stop to balance stuff.
Some companies also do that for tabletop. GW doesnt. It generates no additional profit and you actually have to invest money. Thats the sad truth.