Helldrakes: A Philosophical Analysis

[Mr Mystery]

Indeedy. As with most stuff that's hard, a lot of that potency is all in the mind. If you buy in that Unit X is shockingly hard, youll treat it as such, regardless of how potent it actually is.

Not universal of course. Invisibility and a 2+ invulnerable re-rolled is every bit as pain in the arse as we're told!

[Chris Copeland]

I don't think the flame template can bend back towards the dragon. The target has to be in the arc. That's the whole point of a firing arc, isn't it?

[Caitsidhe]

I don't think the flame template can bend back towards the dragon. The target has to be in the arc. That's the whole point of a firing arc, isn't it?

Not at all. The arc indicates my LOS and as long as the point of impact of the template is within the LOS (the narrow end) the rest can go outside of it. It is still bound by the rules of the template per Torrent though, so it cannot go backwards. Flamers have worked this way with all vehicles since forever and a day. What happens is it narrows the prospective field because the LOS is a more narrow corridor the closer you are to the vehicle. For example, at the point where the fire comes from the dragon's mouth the arc is at its most narrow so you have to put the narrow end in basically one spot. It can swing in basically a 180 arc however hitting about 6" (whatever length the template is) 90 to the left or right. You can't take advantage of the Torrent rule that close because the narrow end would not be inside the LOS. Does that make sense?

However, if you were casting your fire 12" forward per the Torrent rules where your LOS corridor gets much wider you in turn can hit a wider field. Oddly enough, Games Workshop's mechanics simulate real life in this one case. Hard to believe but true.

[Chris Copeland]

I think the target needs to be in the LOS. See "arc of sight" in the vehicle section.

[Caitsidhe]

I think the target needs to be in the LOS. See "arc of sight" in the vehicle section.

You would be incorrect, at least as the RAW. I caveat that in earlier posts staying unless they clarify it more. Templates (of any stripe) are not required to be entirely within the LOS. Only the initial target or point of impact is required. This is why a Blast Templates can hit people outside the LOS but must have a target that is within the LOS. Baal Predators, Land Raiders and every other flamer projecting weapon (particularly Hellhounds) have been doing it this way forever. I grant that they may Faq it (I have already asked them to do so in fact) but given this is Games Workshop that probably won't happen until 8th Edition appears NEXT YEAR.

[Chris Copeland]

So at least part of where the template is aimed needs to be in the arc. That works. The ultimate range ends up going a little out of the arc but the arc still can't bend back towards the dragon.

[This Dave]

You know, I honest to god forgot about them because who the f*** takes basic CSM's?

I'm still a bit upset at the nerf to Vector Strike. The combination of 90º forward arc on the only weapon it has + Vector Strike nerf has me going WTF?

A Vendetta has 3 twin linked lascannons, 2 Heavy Bolters, deep strikes, carries 12 troops, has scout, has the same armor and you can get 3 of them for a single fast attack choice, all for LESS COST THAN A HELDRAKE (prior to Codex: Astra Militarum Codex, now they are same price...), and people *****ed about 3 heldrakes? Really?

Vendettas now only carry 6 troops and can't Deep Strike. I don't think it has Scout anymore either. And you're right they used to be stupid underpriced.

The difference with the Helldrake is that while a Vendetta could kill 3 or so models a turn the Helldrake could easily wipe out a whole squad with no cover and almost no armor saves possible. While they still have this weapon with a 360 degree Torrent it was easy to hit anything on the board while Flying. Combined with its good armor this made it a pain to fight against.

Now I don't mind them as much. They're still dangerous but at least now their effective kill zone is limited while they're Flying. And if they go into Hover they're shootable.

[Caitsidhe]

So at least part of where the template is aimed needs to be in the arc. That works. The ultimate range ends up going a little out of the arc but the arc still can't bend back towards the dragon.

Exactly.

[Yayula]

You might be able to put the template away from the arc of vision, however remember that you cant allocate wounds on models you cant see. The only exception being blast weapons, so you cannot really hurt anything away from the original 45* the heldrake have.

[TheRealJC]

Everyone complains about their codex. At 100 points a Hellbrute is a totally viable choice now considering the new vehicle damage chart. Thousand Sons have a 3+ normal and 4+ invulnerable with an AP3 bolter, not over priced and I run them regularly as bullwark troops, have always been extremely effective. Just last night my Defiler killed more than double his own point cost, and that is not a rare thing with him. Chosen are over priced, I take Draznitch to give them preferred enemy and keep them in the back to deal with Deep Strikers, once again this works out more often than not. There is a lot more to the CSM codex than just a Helldrake (I of course run one of those too, im not stupid). Everyone complains, but each codex has some great options. I have also lost to Tyranid armies more often than anyone else, so I am tired of hearing Nids players complain too. If you cant make your army list work, that is your problem.