Apoc Formations in Regular games: Thoughts?

[Caitsidhe]

thats fine, I'm jsut saying that there is still a distinction between an apocalypse game and a regular 40k game, simply because Apocalypse games have their own rules, rules such as formations, strategic cards, scoring, etc Hell I'd even argue that a Apocalypse game should use the apoc D-weapon rules.

But the apoc formations are bust in 40k, very bust. Use them in your narrative games if you want, but dont fool yourself into thinking that the rules allow it the way they allow unbound

And yet the Lord of War is in there, Psychic Powers which allow people to toss Vortex Grenades, unlimited summoning, and so on. I'm not disagreeing with you that the fact that some of them are extremely weird for 40K (and probably busted) but that doesn't mean much when the entire game is equally busted. I agree that it is likely when they get around to giving us a Faq/Errata on the basic rule book (hopefully soon) that it should include a clear notation on which Formations are allowed and which are not either by individual entries or entire publications. Currently, there are Games Workshop Story Managers using them and when I wrote Black Library about it they forwarded my question to the rules team. The answer that came back to me was "a formation is a formation." In typical Games Workshop style I'm not even sure they did more than skim my question.

[daboarder]

And yet the Lord of War is in there, Psychic Powers which allow people to toss Vortex Grenades, unlimited summoning, and so on. I'm not disagreeing with you that the fact that some of them are extremely weird for 40K (and probably busted) but that doesn't mean much when the entire game is equally busted. I agree that it is likely when they get around to giving us a Faq/Errata on the basic rule book (hopefully soon) that it should include a clear notation on which Formations are allowed and which are not either by individual entries or entire publications. Currently, there are Games Workshop Story Managers using them and when I wrote Black Library about it they forwarded my question to the rules team. The answer that came back to me was "a formation is a formation." In typical Games Workshop style I'm not even sure they did more than skim my question.

eh, none of those sources are better informed than you or I, and frankly this edition is a cluster frak of stupidity piled upon complex stupidity.

[Caitsidhe]

eh, none of those sources are better informed than you or I, and frankly this edition is a cluster frak of stupidity piled upon complex stupidity.

Yes, yes it is. Invisibility alone is ungodly. I played a game yesterday (3K each side) but in truth the only points that really counted were the 1000pts or so I spent on Be'lakor and my Winged Nurgle Daemon Prince w/Black Mace and Psychic Powers, and then one more Winged Nurgle Daemon Prince with the Eye of Night. While my other guys were certainly there, I think the collective damage they inflicted was some small Imperial Flyer, some Hull Points on various vehicles, and moral support.

Just about everything I killed was done by my three Daemon Princes and of that most of the damage was done by my Invisible (compliments Be'lakor) Winged Nurgle Daemon Prince w/Black Mace. Had I not had invisibility, they would have done some great damage, but would have gone down to the near endless amounts of firepower spent upon them. My Dark Angels opponent had volume of fire that would take down a Worm on Dune. It didn't matter. So, in the greater context of this cluster-bang we call 7th Edition, I don't think Apocalypse Formations really mean much one way or another.

[The Tisroc]

... I'm just saying that there is still a distinction between an apocalypse game and a regular 40k game, simply because Apocalypse games have their own rules, rules such as formations, strategic cards, scoring, etc Hell I'd even argue that a Apocalypse game should use the apoc D-weapon rules.

Well said. Apoc is one thing and regular 40K is another. You have to be playing Apoc to use Apoc stuff (unless it's specifically designated for 40k).

[deinol]

You can play how you want as long as your opponent agrees.

Unless you are in a tournament, in which case you've agreed to play how the tournament organizer has decided you should play.

Interestingly enough, a combined arms detachment isn't required to be bound. You can have a single detachment and be a legal army, assuming that makes up enough points. Of course, formations don't get objective secured.

[Erik Setzer]

apocalypse formations are clearly different to dataslate formations. They have their own additional special rules.

Or are you going to argue that high command rules, psychic choirs and broadsword/rapier tank positioning rules are available to units and armies in regular 40k?

Those special rules apply to Apoc games only, just like the Lord of War Escalation rules only apply in Escalation missions now. A High Command doesn't do much for you when there's no Strategic Assets around to use.

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Of course, formations don't get objective secured.

Actually, the Tyranid flying swarm formation gives Objective Secured to Gargoyles units. So you could actually have an Unbound Tyranid army with Objective Secured units (that come back on a 4+ when destroyed).

[Voltigeur]

Why bother trying to restrict apoc formations? This entire edition is about throwing open the floodgates to players to take whatever you want. GW certainly wants us to use everything and the kitchen sink, so why the heck not? It's not like we have to worry about upsetting delicate game balance. If you want to wrap your little brother in tinfoil, call him an Imperator titan, and field him as your 1500pt army, then by all means do just that!

[daboarder]

Those special rules apply to Apoc games only, just like the Lord of War Escalation rules only apply in Escalation missions now. A High Command doesn't do much for you when there's no Strategic Assets around to use.

thats basically my point, the formations core rules require an apocalypse game.

[mathhammer]

depends, The formations in Valedor are labeled as Apoc. only formations (boo hiss),. Other formations are designed for 40k. If you want to bring an Apoc formation to a 40k game then you need the permission of your opponent. A 40k formation you don't.

[Ezaviel]

Except, there is a distinction. As mentioned, in the newer books the Apocalypse Formations are called just that, while regular ones are just called Formations. Even Forge World stuff has the 40k ones specifically marked, and the ones that can be Lords of War listed out in a pdf.

Compare the Dataslate Formations. The 40k ones are called Formations, the Apocalypse ones are specifically named Apocalypse Formations.

In fact, looking at Dataslate: Centurion Siegebreaker Cohort, i see the following:
"If a Formation is referred to as an Apocalypse Formation, it can only be used in games of Warhammer 40,000: Apocalypse."

I feel logic dictates that Apocalypse Formations are still intended for Apocalypse only.