Apoc Formations in Regular games: Thoughts?

[daboarder]

Except, there is a distinction. As mentioned, in the newer books the Apocalypse Formations are called just that, while regular ones are just called Formations. Even Forge World stuff has the 40k ones specifically marked, and the ones that can be Lords of War listed out in a pdf.

Compare the Dataslate Formations. The 40k ones are called Formations, the Apocalypse ones are specifically named Apocalypse Formations.

In fact, looking at Dataslate: Centurion Siegebreaker Cohort, i see the following:
"If a Formation is referred to as an Apocalypse Formation, it can only be used in games of Warhammer 40,000: Apocalypse."

I feel logic dictates that Apocalypse Formations are still intended for Apocalypse only.

well said and found

[Erik Setzer]

If you want to bring an Apoc formation to a 40k game then you need the permission of your opponent. A 40k formation you don't.

Actually, you sort of do. The rulebook says that you have to agree with your opponent before building an army as to what restrictions might apply. So if they don't want to play against a formation, you're just SOL.

[Xaric]

Ok all I see in this is "where does it say you can use the apoc formations" ok here's my counter argument "where in the rule book does it say we can't use a GW publication formation from the apoc rule book?

You can't say 1 thing then have a double standard unfortunately its one or the other unless proven via FAQ so as it stands All current formations that are stated as a formation are 100% legal and if you can't take that go back to making stupid house rules where knights are not allowed in your 40k games because there a super heavy and leave us to enjoy our games without you farting on them please.

As for me i welcome all the crazy unbalanced stuff because if my foe can do it i can do it too and so far i empoly 3 Knights and my foe has his khorne lord of skulls and we throw in a formation of crazy stuff and it might seem unbalanced to some but it feels really balanced to me that it ends mostly in a draw because we dont bicker over how unbalanced our games are...

[Mathias Butte Kastling]

I had this discution and if you use APOC formations in reglar 40k you have turned 40k into APOC. there are APOC formations which gives you rules that only exists in APOC. Also it´s in the wording. the formations in from the new ork books for example are called formations and all have the same icon, the formation icon. the APOC formations have all different icons are called "armoured spearhead", "High command", "Flyer wings" etc etc so the wording is wrong. APOC formations are NOT formations so they cant be used in regular 40k UNLESS both players agree to use them, which really turns it into an APOC game. Super heavys are called Lord of war and are ok now even if they come from APOC book.

[Mathias Butte Kastling]

so I can take a imperator titan at 1500 pts? its a formation right?

Yes and no. Yes you can take a Titan (super heavy vehicle) in 1500p. Just go unbound. and No its not a formation it´s a Lord of War choice now.

[Xaric]

I had this discution and if you use APOC formations in reglar 40k you have turned 40k into APOC. there are APOC formations which gives you rules that only exists in APOC. Also it´s in the wording. the formations in from the new ork books for example are called formations and all have the same icon, the formation icon. the APOC formations have all different icons are called "armoured spearhead", "High command", "Flyer wings" etc etc so the wording is wrong. APOC formations are NOT formations so they cant be used in regular 40k UNLESS both players agree to use them, which really turns it into an APOC game. Super heavys are called Lord of war and are ok now even if they come from APOC book.

Read page 59 of your apoc warhammer 40k book under the icon "Battle Formation" and keep the icon in mind now look at page 85 the formation i am using whats the icon at the top right of the page its the battle formation icon that is by the rule a formation regaurdless of what book it is in it clearly states it is a battle formation...

[Archon Charybdis]

ok here's my counter argument "where in the rule book does it say we can't use a GW publication formation from the apoc rule book?

That's pretty infantile. Where in the rules does it say I can't smash my opponent's army with a hammer and declare myself All-Time-Winner-Forever? Besides, someone already pointed out on page 2 that the Apoc rulebook itself, (as well as the most recent dataslates) explicitly make a distinction between a Formation and an Apocalypse Formation. Not allowing Apocalypse Formations in a pick-up game is not equivalent to banning Knight Titans, it's following the rules.

[Xaric]

The law states that as vandalism of a person personal property that's where it says that also stop being childish... All I ask is if you are going to say its disallowed but lack the wording in the big rule book to say it is disallowed then you can not justify it not being used as there is no rule stating can not use other publications from GW that provide the formations if that's the case NO ARMYS BEFORE 7TH EDITION are allowed in my game because there all made for 5th or 6th edition in mind see I can play that game too...

[Xaric]

That's pretty infantile. Where in the rules does it say I can't smash my opponent's army with a hammer and declare myself All-Time-Winner-Forever? Besides, someone already pointed out on page 2 that the Apoc rulebook itself, (as well as the most recent dataslates) explicitly make a distinction between a Formation and an Apocalypse Formation. Not allowing Apocalypse Formations in a pick-up game is not equivalent to banning Knight Titans, it's following the rules.

Apocalypse formation? where in the apocalypse book does it say apocalypse formation it clearly states on page 59 Battle formation in the Key

[Archon Charybdis]

The law states that as vandalism of a person personal property

Yes, but it's not against the rules of the game.

All I ask is if you are going to say its disallowed but lack the wording in the big rule book to say it is disallowed then you can not justify it not being used

That's not how a permissive rules set works, which is why I can't smash my opponents army or declare myself automatic winner or write up my own psychic powers. The rules have to give you permission to do something, not an explicit prohibition to NOT do something.

It's irrelevant though, because again, you're talking about using Apocalypse Formations, not simple Formations. The main rulebook gives you rules for using Formations, not Apocalypse Formations. If that weren't enough, as Ezaviel pointed out two months ago, there are in fact a few places that explicitly state Apocalypse Formations are only for use in Apocalypse.

Apocalypse formation? where in the apocalypse book does it say apocalypse formation it clearly states on page 59 Battle formation in the Key

How about in the index on pg.2 "Apocalypse Formations", the section title page on 57 "Apocalypse Formations", and the very next page under Formation types "Apocalypse gives you the chance to field Apocalypse Formations. Every Apocalypse Formation is presented..." and so on throughout the section. Battle Formations are one type of Apocalypse Formation. Even if they weren't, find the rules for using a "Battle Formation" in the main rulebook.