1850 vs 2000 points

[Halollet]

So, I still see lists that are 1850 all over the place. To my understanding the reason why it was set at that point level to avoid people bringing double lists that was allowed at the 2,000 point limit. But that was 6th edition, we're in the bizarre land of 7th edition.

I can bring a battle forge 1,500 point list, consisting of 5 flyrants and 6 units of rippers.

So is there any point to limiting our lists that 150 points? Would just going to 2,000 points just make things easier?

Maybe having lists that are 250 points apart would be the best?

500, 750, 1000, 1250, 1500, 1750, 2000?

What do you guys/gals think?

[RedSoloCup]

OUr local club usually plays list in the 250 pt breakdown range. 1750 mostly.

[Caitsidhe]

So, I still see lists that are 1850 all over the place. To my understanding the reason why it was set at that point level to avoid people bringing double lists that was allowed at the 2,000 point limit. But that was 6th edition, we're in the bizarre land of 7th edition.

I can bring a battle forge 1,500 point list, consisting of 5 flyrants and 6 units of rippers.

So is there any point to limiting our lists that 150 points? Would just going to 2,000 points just make things easier?

Maybe having lists that are 250 points apart would be the best?

500, 750, 1000, 1250, 1500, 1750, 2000?

What do you guys/gals think?

I think that ultimately event organizers will keep points lower, period. There are several reasons for this:

1. Tournaments and even non-competitive events generally happen over the course of a single day. Lower points means shorter games.
2. While GW went out of their way to let you abuse things at lower points, you still have less points and thus are at least somewhat constrained.
3. Most people have a limit to how much time they have for painting and modeling (even before gaming).
3. The game has hit the saturation point wherein the average player (not the maniac) never collects more than about 2000pts effective.

In essence, Games Workshop is trying to swim upstream. They want to continue to be niche, a "luxury" item, but this stands as a barrier to some potential customers and the ones for whom this isn't a barrier often already have most of the models they need. Instead of cutting prices to broaden their customer base, Games Workshop got the bright idea of trying to encourage people to buy larger armies for larger games and more different armies by allowing them to be slammed together. They tried to nudge this in 6th Edition with "double foci" but we weren't having any. Thus, 7th Edition was born to try and force the issue. It is a pipe dream, and Games Workshop is going to find that our the hard way. People are more pragmatic than they realize. Most people do not live far beyond their means. They will only acquire as much models as they need to play the game to their own tastes (or can afford). Combine costs with the time issue of large games and you have two potent factors acting against larger games being common.

Without a doubt, people do get together now and then and plan for a big game, but these will never be the norm because most people lack the time (not to mention cash). In short, Games Workshop has already hit the apex of what it can do as a "luxury" commodity. It will NEVER overcome the fact that the average game simply cannot go beyond 2-3 hours. It will never overcome the fact that there are only so many people who have the money to spend like they would like us to spend, and those that can will quickly reach their goals and their purchases will likewise drop. I apologize for the tangent, but it was important to address your question.

People played at 1850 commonly to avoid double foci, certainly, but more than that they played that level to keep the game length manageable. How much time do you have?

[Wolfshade]

This is where I cause trouble

I play most games at 1,000pts.

At 2,000pts you can build genuine all-comers (or rather all rounder) lists. There is little discernment and you can take everything including the kitchen sink in an army. You do not need to worry about that 5pts you spent on the sarge's melta bombs as it is so small.

Drop down to 1000pts and you have tactical/strategic decisions to make. You know you cannot take on every army build, so you start to specialise and sometimes how these interact is quite strange.

You don't have enough troops to claim all of the objectives so you need to pick and choose which ones you aim for.

Of course the other advantage is time/cost. Shorter games (espeicially, when getting to grips with the new rules) and it makes it easier for others to join the fun as you are only playing at 1000pts so is more easy to step into.

[LostAlone]

This is where I cause trouble

I play most games at 1,000pts.

At 2,000pts you can build genuine all-comers (or rather all rounder) lists. There is little discernment and you can take everything including the kitchen sink in an army. You do not need to worry about that 5pts you spent on the sarge's melta bombs as it is so small.

Drop down to 1000pts and you have tactical/strategic decisions to make. You know you cannot take on every army build, so you start to specialize and sometimes how these interact is quite strange.

You don't have enough troops to claim all of the objectives so you need to pick and choose which ones you aim for.

Of course the other advantage is time/cost. Shorter games (espeicially, when getting to grips with the new rules) and it makes it easier for others to join the fun as you are only playing at 1000pts so is more easy to step into.

I strongly agree with this approach to the game.

At 1000 pts armies there is a lot more fun to be had simply because you have to think very differently. Every model in your army counts a lot more and you can't fall back on deathstar units (in 6th anyway) to reliably demolish anything you point them at. You simply don't have access to so many toys so you have to think more about getting the best out of your core units. You could use powerhouse units, but you are making a much bigger sacrifice to take them. A lot more armies are competitive because there's no realistic way to spam anything at that level. Maybe there's less diversity in terms of the units that people bring (lots of captain + 2 tactical squads + 2 other units type lists) but as Wolf said, that makes for more interesting stuff happening because you can't dominate the board the way you would be able to with more points.

It's just... It's a good experience. It makes a lot of things feel more balanced to me to be honest. The difference in prices and the restrictions of the FOC are much more apparent. You never want to lose any model if you can help it because they all make a difference.

[Voltigeur]

I strongly agree with this approach to the game.

At 1000 pts armies there is a lot more fun to be had simply because you have to think very differently. Every model in your army counts a lot more and you can't fall back on deathstar units (in 6th anyway) to reliably demolish anything you point them at. You simply don't have access to so many toys so you have to think more about getting the best out of your core units. You could use powerhouse units, but you are making a much bigger sacrifice to take them. A lot more armies are competitive because there's no realistic way to spam anything at that level. Maybe there's less diversity in terms of the units that people bring (lots of captain + 2 tactical squads + 2 other units type lists) but as Wolf said, that makes for more interesting stuff happening because you can't dominate the board the way you would be able to with more points.

It's just... It's a good experience. It makes a lot of things feel more balanced to me to be honest. The difference in prices and the restrictions of the FOC are much more apparent. You never want to lose any model if you can help it because they all make a difference.

I can't help but agree with all the points here! I'll happily play anywhere from 500-1500pts. Personally I never liked that 1850-2000 became the go to standard for 40k. It takes much too long to play the game at those points levels.

[Harley]

This is where I cause trouble

I play most games at 1,000pts.

At 2,000pts you can build genuine all-comers (or rather all rounder) lists. There is little discernment and you can take everything including the kitchen sink in an army. You do not need to worry about that 5pts you spent on the sarge's melta bombs as it is so small.

Drop down to 1000pts and you have tactical/strategic decisions to make. You know you cannot take on every army build, so you start to specialise and sometimes how these interact is quite strange.

You don't have enough troops to claim all of the objectives so you need to pick and choose which ones you aim for.

Of course the other advantage is time/cost. Shorter games (espeicially, when getting to grips with the new rules) and it makes it easier for others to join the fun as you are only playing at 1000pts so is more easy to step into.

I actually find those facets to be LESS fun about the game. At that point it feels like it's less about strategy and more about hoping I brought more Rocks than my opponent did Scissors. Since a 1k list can't possible cover every facet of Flyers, MCs, Psykers, Vehicles, Hords, CC, or Shooting, one army will always be at a disadvantage unless you play a Space Marine meta heavy location. My area has always been Xeno heavy so it's very easy to quickly find one army gimmicking their way to victory.

[Caitsidhe]

I actually find those facets to be LESS fun about the game. At that point it feels like it's less about strategy and more about hoping I brought more Rocks than my opponent did Scissors. Since a 1k list can't possible cover every facet of Flyers, MCs, Psykers, Vehicles, Hords, CC, or Shooting, one army will always be at a disadvantage unless you play a Space Marine meta heavy location. My area has always been Xeno heavy so it's very easy to quickly find one army gimmicking their way to victory.

Pretty much. Lacking any common standard or actual game balance, everything is now random for the most part. Welcome to Candyland. There are exceptions wherein people with the willpower, time and cash can build a better beast. With this much randomness, actual skill is mitigated while logistics and luck are elevated.

[Wolfshade]

I actually find those facets to be LESS fun about the game. At that point it feels like it's less about strategy and more about hoping I brought more Rocks than my opponent did Scissors. Since a 1k list can't possible cover every facet of Flyers, MCs, Psykers, Vehicles, Hords, CC, or Shooting, one army will always be at a disadvantage unless you play a Space Marine meta heavy location. My area has always been Xeno heavy so it's very easy to quickly find one army gimmicking their way to victory.

As the only Space Marine player in my gaming group it isn't that, fortunately, also within the group there aren't any "gimmicky" players. Maybe because we knoiw each others army collections we are better able to anticipate than in pick up games.

[Halollet]

While you've all made perfectly valid points, that's not really the question I was getting at.

The 1850 point limit always seemed like an off number to me. And way to close to 1750 and 2000 point armies for my taste.

My suggestion was, if you're going to play a game that big, why not go to 2000 points now that we're in 7th?

I wasn't meaning to comment on 1750 point or less size games at all.

Engish is hard.