Mawloc and Deep Strike

[Shavnir]

Where is the restriction about where to place the scatter marker (the model) that the OP is asking about in his very first question? There is none.

Like I said before, the question lies in the game's definition of placement. Also the rules never refer to a scatter marker. It specifically refers to a model. Also you keep talking about the Scatter Marker, a concept I believe went away in 4th (maybe third) edition.

Additionally on page 13 it explicitly states "Remember that other models, friends and enemies, also count as impassable terrain". Combine this with a line from page 14 "Models may not be placed in impassable terrain unless the models concerned have a special rule in their profile granting them an exception (like being able to fly above the terrain) or both players agree to it"

So in conclusion :

1 ) Deep strikes start with models being placed
2a ) Other models are impassable terrain
2b ) You cannot place models in impassable terrain
ergo
You cannot place the mawloc on top of other models.

You can 'if' all you want, but this is a rule forum, and we try to stick with whats written in the rule books. The Deep Strike rules provide no restriction for the deep strike marker (the model) when placing it on the table.

Except of course those implicit in all cases of placing a model on the table

The problem here is that you are some how treating the marker (the model) as 1) an actual model that is bound by rules given in the rest of the book (which is isn't) and 2) actually on the table (which the unit has not reached the table yet).

You can place the model anywhere that the Deep Strike rules allows, which is anywhere on the playing field (the table). Where you place it initially is NOT important as the unit is not on the table yet. Thats what the Scatter Roll determines.

There's no implication of this line of reasoning anywhere in the deep strike rules. Just an fyi.

EDIT (since 20 minutes isn't enough time for the 30 second timer to be appealed) :

Now to fix this problem. Personally I'll be going with the following errata on the rule (not saying I have any authority to issue such, just what I would do to fix it)

Replace the first paragraph of the Mawloc's "Terror from the Deep" rule with the following :

If the Mawloc arrives via deep strike do the following. First nominate a target point. Then roll a scatter die and 2d6 scattering that point accordingly. If the point goes off the board the Mawloc suffers a Deep Strike Mishap on the Deep Strike Mishap table. If the point is still on the board center a 5" S6 AP2 template on the point

<insert rest of paragraph 2 about models being moved and the like here>. After this has been resolved the Mawloc deep strikes without scattering on that location. Resolve any mishaps from impassable terrain as normal.

[Bean]

Shav's really right on this one:



1.) When a unit Deep Strikes, one model from the unit is placed on the table. (page 95)

2.) Models can't be placed in impassable terrain (page 14)

3.) Enemy models count as impassable terrain (page 13)

...

4.)Therefor, when the Mawlock Deep Strikes, it can't be placed on top of enemy models.



The rulebook is really quite explicit about this.

[BuFFo]

1) When you Deep Strike, you follow the rules for Deep Strike and nothing else.

2) Codex rules supersede basic rules.

My post on the first page is how you do it. Take it or leave it.

[Shavnir]

1) When you Deep Strike, you follow the rules for Deep Strike and nothing else.

2) Codex rules supersede basic rules.

My post on the first page is how you do it. Take it or leave it.

The deep strike rules say place. The rules say you cannot place a model in impassable terrain. Show me where in the codex it allows you to place a model in impassable terrain.

[Bean]

Or, to be more specific, the rules for Deep Strike say, "First place one model from the unit anywhere on the table." That's on page 95.

[HsojVvad]

Shav's really right on this one:



1.) When a unit Deep Strikes, one model from the unit is placed on the table. (page 95)

2.) Models can't be placed in impassable terrain (page 14)

3.) Enemy models count as impassable terrain (page 13)

...

4.)Therefor, when the Mawlock Deep Strikes, it can't be placed on top of enemy models.




The rulebook is really quite explicit about this.

Well the point is moot, but if we go by the 4th edtion Tyraind codex, there was are models that could go in impassable terrain. But now that we are using the 5th editon Tyraind codex I guess the point is moot now.

Here is my question as a newb to the rules. Where does it say you can't designate impable terrian for DS? You know, now that I am starting to learn the rules of 40K, I am starting to see how poorly written the rules are. We have to cross reference this rule, with that rule, and go over to this rule so we can see if we can DS?

If you read the DS rules, it just says place the model anywhere on the table. Then we roll for scatter, then we roll to see how far if we do scatter. So my question is, how do we know that the DS rule overides the rule on page 13 as was mentioned that models are impassable terrian, or does the model is impassable terrian rule overrieds the DS rule? Basically I am new to the gamin aspect of 40K so it's quite confusing to me how to be reading all these rules since they are all over the place.

One point to remember if I am reading correctly is: not that you can't DS on an enemy model, but that the DS model can be within 1" of an enemy model and can't be on a friendly model. So there has to be at least a 1" buffer zone to an enemy model when DS.

I don't see the point anyways just DS 1" away from the model. If you get a hit, you will still be under the large blast template for damage purposes, or am I reading that rule wrong as well?

[Shavnir]

Well the point is moot, but if we go by the 4th edtion Tyraind codex, there was are models that could go in impassable terrain. But now that we are using the 5th editon Tyraind codex I guess the point is moot now.

Here is my question as a newb to the rules. Where does it say you can't designate impable terrian for DS? You know, now that I am starting to learn the rules of 40K, I am starting to see how poorly written the rules are. We have to cross reference this rule, with that rule, and go over to this rule so we can see if we can DS?

Welcome to 40k. Enjoy the rules potholes, its just part of the ride.

If you read the DS rules, it just says place the model anywhere on the table. Then we roll for scatter, then we roll to see how far if we do scatter. So my question is, how do we know that the DS rule overides the rule on page 13 as was mentioned that models are impassable terrian, or does the model is impassable terrian rule overrieds the DS rule? Basically I am new to the gamin aspect of 40K so it's quite confusing to me how to be reading all these rules since they are all over the place.

The DS rule gives us a guideline on how to resolve it if the models scatters into impassable terrain or on top of (or close to as the next question alludes to) enemy models. While it can result in situations that conflict with pages 13/14 of the rulebook it has a contingency for resolving those conflicts (the mishap table roll).

One point to remember if I am reading correctly is: not that you can't DS on an enemy model, but that the DS model can be within 1" of an enemy model and can't be on a friendly model. So there has to be at least a 1" buffer zone to an enemy model when DS.

I don't see the point anyways just DS 1" away from the model. If you get a hit, you will still be under the large blast template for damage purposes, or am I reading that rule wrong as well?

Now this is interesting. I'm not 100% sure how this interaction would work. The placement is legal, only the area of other models is considered impassable. The Mawloc's rule triggers if it deep strikes on top of an enemy model however if it is 1/2" away or whatever it clearly has not. Near as I can tell going by full RAW it would actually mishap in that case.

[Bean]

On page 14 it states: "Models cannot be placed in impassable terrain unless the models concerned have a special rule in their profile granting them an exception (like being able to fly above it) or both players agree to it."

Thus, when the Deep Strike rules require you to place a model on the table, you can't place it in impassable terrain, unless it has a specific exception in its profile (the Mawlock does not) or you get your opponent to agree to it (and you can basically do anything as long as your opponent agrees to it).

The rules for Deepstrike would have to pretty explicitly override the rule against placing a model into impassable terrain for it to be otherwise, and they do not do so.

I'd have to have the actual text from the Mawlock's rule to know for sure, but I suspect that Shav is also right when he notes that a Mawlock which deepstrikes within an inch of an enemy model but not actually on top of an enemy model would suffer a normal mishap.

[BuFFo]

Here is my question as a newb to the rules. Where does it say you can't designate impable terrian for DS?

Deep Strike has no such restriction. You can place the model/marker anywhere on the table before rolling for scatter.

You know, now that I am starting to learn the rules of 40K, I am starting to see how poorly written the rules are.

5th edition rules are the best rules written yet for 40k in its 23ish years of being on the planet. What makes the rules look poor are the poor interpretation of said rules on the internet.

We have to cross reference this rule, with that rule, and go over to this rule so we can see if we can DS?

Thats it. You don't cross reference anything with Deep Strike. What these two guys are doing are citing a rule elsewhere in the book and trying to make their point seem logical.

According to them, you can cross reference any rule you want whenever you want. So I guess when you Deep Strike in with a unit, after it enters play, you can cross reference the damage chart, pick a strength 10 large blast, and wound the unit.

If you read the DS rules, it just says place the model anywhere on the table.

Yes, that's exactly it! For someone who is new to the game, you have a great grasp of the rules.

One point to remember if I am reading correctly is: not that you can't DS on an enemy model, but that the DS model can be within 1" of an enemy model and can't be on a friendly model. So there has to be at least a 1" buffer zone to an enemy model when DS.

You had it right in your last quote. This quote is incorrect.

[Shavnir]

Deep Strike has no such restriction. You can place the model/marker anywhere on the table before rolling for scatter.

Its not nice to lie to new players you know.