Tyrant Guard

[Drakkan Vael]

Are new Tyrant Guard considered monstrous creatures or infantry? p.49 says that Monstrous Creatures that are ICs can't be targeted when in a unit of monstrous creatures. I know TG used to be MCs but I'm not sure about the new codex.

No, they are not MC. But the Hive Tyrant is not an IC. So p. 49 is of no concern here.

BuFFo already answered how the HT an the TG are to be used.

[Duke]

Yes buffo answered But that does not mean his opinion is the correct one ... I'm not going to go into deatils, but I disagree with his interpretation. The point is: until there is a FAQ your group has to find a private ruling, our group ( afte considering everything) is that he is an ic an remains an ic.

[Bean]

This really isn't complicated, and Buffo has really nailed it.

The rule allows a Tyrant to join a unit of Tyrant Guard.

It does not make the Tyrant an Independent Character.

It does not cause the Tyrant to stop being a Monstrous Creature.

The Tyrant cannot leave the unit of Tyrant Guard because there is no rule which allows him to do so.

The Tyrant cannot be picked out from the squad, either in close combat or by shooting, because he is not an Independant character.

The Tyrant does not become an upgrade character and the Tyrant Guard do not become a retinue--they simply all become one big, happy, unit together which behaves just like any other unit.

[Duke]

Here is my thing, as I said before... Until there is a FAQ my group and I will be playig it differently. As of right now. I'm not saying your wrong, only that we haven't come to the same conclusion. It may very well turn out that I am eventually the minority and i feel RAI actually support your thoughts. So, in the short your right... It isn't that complicated, I'll play my way and you play yours, when the FAQ is released we can ressurect the thread.

Duke

[Caldera02]

Here's my question about this. Why word it the way it is? Is that to just bring it in line with 5th edition wording or something? Up until now, the guard has been a retinue. So why go out of the way to word it this way if it behaves the same exact way as before? Provided that the above statements are true. I still don't know myself.

Personally I think the guard still acts as a retinue because why else is the dang guard there for in the first place.

[HsojVvad]

Ok, for people who say the HT becomes an IC once joining a TG let's try this. So what you are telling me, once a HT joins a TG brood he becomes an IC correct? So he can't be picked off in shooting but in CC correct? If we go by this, since the HT is now an IC, he can leave the TG and join a brood of say gaunts. He is an IC after all as you say he becomes. No where in the rules does it say it looses it's IC status so I will join my HT to a TG so he becomes and IC and then leave the TG and join a brood of gaunts.

I don't believe this how it works, because he never becomes an IC. But it you say he becomes an IC, he never looses it because it dosn't say he looses his status and then can join any other brood, maybe a brood of 3 Carnifex or 30 Gaunts. Oh that would be nice, 30 shoots before a single one hits the HT.

Why are we having a hard time with this rule? The HT joins the HG as if he was an IC. That's it, it gets no other bonuses for being an IC. Since the HT is not an IC he can't leave the brood anymore. The TG does not make the HT an IC otherwise if it did, the HT can join any other unit he wants to then.

[HsojVvad]

Yes buffo answered But that does not mean his opinion is the correct one ... I'm not going to go into deatils, but I disagree with his interpretation. The point is: until there is a FAQ your group has to find a private ruling, our group ( afte considering everything) is that he is an ic an remains an ic.

Please go into details. If we read your reasoning we can change our minds then. If not we have to assume we are correct since you are not correcting us.

[Madjob]

Ok, for people who say the HT becomes an IC once joining a TG let's try this. So what you are telling me, once a HT joins a TG brood he becomes an IC correct? So he can't be picked off in shooting but in CC correct? If we go by this, since the HT is now an IC, he can leave the TG and join a brood of say gaunts. He is an IC after all as you say he becomes. No where in the rules does it say it looses it's IC status so I will join my HT to a TG so he becomes and IC and then leave the TG and join a brood of gaunts.

I don't believe this how it works, because he never becomes an IC. But it you say he becomes an IC, he never looses it because it dosn't say he looses his status and then can join any other brood, maybe a brood of 3 Carnifex or 30 Gaunts. Oh that would be nice, 30 shoots before a single one hits the HT.

Why are we having a hard time with this rule? The HT joins the HG as if he was an IC. That's it, it gets no other bonuses for being an IC. Since the HT is not an IC he can't leave the brood anymore. The TG does not make the HT an IC otherwise if it did, the HT can join any other unit he wants to then.

People made the exact same arguments about why counter-assaulters don't get furious charge and can't have defensive grenades used against them - "exactly as if" seemed to be exclusive to the one condition it referred to. It excludes all other rules related to the rule it's referring to - striking at I1 for assaulting through cover/dangerous terrain tests, etc.

Now we have a FAQ (an admittedly confusing one) that rules otherwise, giving precedent to an argument to the contrary in concern to the HT. In addition, consider that the wording is an exception rather than a new behavior. The Hive Tyrant (and Swarmlord) is established as a Monstrous Creature and not an Independent Character as well. He therefore behaves as a Monstrous Creature and not as an Independent Character. In the case of the Tyrant Guard, we are given an exception - the Hive Tyrant behaves as an Independent Character and can join a unit of Tyrant Guard, "exactly as if". Finally remember that we have no rules concerning mixed units of MCs and non-MCs EXCEPT in the case of IC MCs joining non-MC units. Even if we accept Buffo's ruling, we still have no idea how we are supposed to treat this unit unless we fall back on the rules regarding IC MCs.

[DarkLink]

Please go into details. If we read your reasoning we can change our minds then. If not we have to assume we are correct since you are not correcting us.

Well, we shouldn't assume we're correct, just that we've come to the best possible conclusion. That way if a flaw in our logic pops up, we can easily adjust the conclusion without getting caught up on right or wrong.

[Bean]

Even if we accept Buffo's ruling, we still have no idea how we are supposed to treat this unit unless we fall back on the rules regarding IC MCs.

All of the rules for normal units work just fine, even if one or more of the models in the unit are monstrous creatures. We have all the rules we need for dealing with a unit containing a monstrous creature, whether that monstrous creature is an IC or not.

What particular situations do you think the extant rules would leave unclear, were the Tyrant a part of the unit but not an IC?