Tyrant Guard

[Madjob]

All of the rules for normal units work just fine, even if one or more of the models in the unit are monstrous creatures. We have all the rules we need for dealing with a unit containing a monstrous creature, whether that monstrous creature is an IC or not.

What particular situations do you think the extant rules would leave unclear, were the Tyrant a part of the unit but not an IC?

Off the top of my head - how do we treat cover for such a unit? Since we don't know that you can target the MC independently, since we lack a rule stating such as with the IC MC mixed squad rules, how do you handle that? If the unit is composed of 2 Tyrant Guard and a Hive Tyrant, and the Tyrant Guard are standing in cover but the Hive Tyrant isn't, does he get cover even though he is not in cover according to the rules for Monstrous Creatures?

[Duke]

Ok here is my thinking so far. The rules state that the HT joins "As if," he was an IC. This means that if a Hive Tyrant joins a squad of Tyrant Guard then he is treated as if he was an IC, this means (according to page 49 brb) that he can be targeted seperatly.

Now, I don't think this is how the Rules as Intended should present the Tyrant Guard. However, I don't think he acts as a IC when he attatches and then stops after that. My feeling is that as long as he is joined to the unit then he is an IC.

As I said I am not trying to say Im right and anyone else is wrong, just that my current interpretation is different than some others.

Duke

[Nabterayl]

Off the top of my head - how do we treat cover for such a unit? Since we don't know that you can target the MC independently, since we lack a rule stating such as with the IC MC mixed squad rules, how do you handle that? If the unit is composed of 2 Tyrant Guard and a Hive Tyrant, and the Tyrant Guard are standing in cover but the Hive Tyrant isn't, does he get cover even though he is not in cover according to the rules for Monstrous Creatures?

Same way as you treat any other unit. For each model, check whether that model is "in cover." If at least 50% of the models in the unit are "in cover" then the entire unit is entitled to a 4+ cover save. The only difference is that the rules for determining whether a tyrant guard model is "in cover" are different than the rules for determining whether a hive tyrant is "in cover."

[Bean]

Well, Nabterayl, you really beat me to that one. And you're absolutely right.

Next objection, Madjob?

[Caldera02]

Shooting at the Hive tyrant and cover is irrelevant. If the guard is behind cover then 50% of the unit is also, therefore granting cover save. It's a double edge sword however in that you can almost always see the unit but they still get cover saves.

Now in my opinion and the way we currently play it at my store, the only real question that comes to mind when regarding how the wording of shieldwall is now, is weather or not in close combat does the HT count as an IC. We play it as he does but not sure if that is intended.

[Duke]

Like I said, we have been also treating him as an IC in close combat.

Duke

[Bean]

And as a house rule, Duke, that's fine, but nothing in the actual rule supports that interpretation.

The only way he is like an independent character is that he can join a unit of Tyrant Guard. He can't leave it, he can't be picked out in combat, and he can't be picked out by shots. Why? Because he's not like an independent character in any of those ways. He's only like an IC in exactly the ways that are stated--no more and no less.

[Duke]

And what you are stating is also fine for a house ruling, but nothing in the actual rule actually supports that.

[Bean]

No, pretty much all the extant rules support exactly that--and only that. I've already explained why, as have others.

[Ymir]

Here is how my groups nid player says this works. Basically the HT joins the guard and they can be used to alocate wounds from shooting. But in melee the HT can be singled out by models directly in base with him.