Tyrant Guard

[HsojVvad]

Here is how my groups nid player says this works. Basically the HT joins the guard and they can be used to alocate wounds from shooting. But in melee the HT can be singled out by models directly in base with him.

But this is wrong though. Ok I will agree with you for a minute. So what I will do now, is join my HT with a Tyrant guard. Since now he is an IC he will leave the TG and join a brood of Carnis or a brood of 30 termagaunts. You are making him out to be an IC, so there for once he joins TG, he becomes an IC.

If we go that the HT can be picked out in CC like a IC, then he can leave and join another brood then. It's only fair.

You are making a rule that benifits you without any proof. So by going by your logic, it's only fair to go by my logic then.

*edit* when I say you, I mean your group.

[Drakkan Vael]

Let's have a look at this from another direction:
Is the Tyrant by default an IC? - No.
Is he allowed to join any unit save the Tyrant Guard? - No.
Does the wording of the rule contain the words "the Tyrant becomes an IC by joining the Guard?" - No

Why would anyone join a unit of Tyrant Guard, when the Tyrant may be shot at or attacked in close combat while he is part of the unit? He would gain absolutely nothing.
In fact, he would be better of staying behind the Tyrant guard. That way he would at least gain a cover save by being obscured by the guard.
Following this, the rule would be obsolete.

The rule - which is a special rule that the Tyrant Guard has and NOT the Tyrant allows a Tyramt to join the unit "as if he were an independent caracter".
This is a subjunctive. "As if" is not the same as "he becomes".

The rule does not change the Tyrant into an IC. Simply because it does not say so.
The rule does not say he should be treated like an IC in regards to shooting or cc.
The wording of the rule as written is quite clear.

[Madjob]

Let's have a look at this from another direction:
Is the Tyrant by default an IC? - No.
Is he allowed to join any unit save the Tyrant Guard? - No.
Does the wording of the rule contain the words "the Tyrant guard becomes an IC by joining the Guard?" - No

Why would anyone join a unit of Tyrant Guard, when the Tyrant may be shot at or attacked in close combat while he is part of the unit? He would gain absolutely nothing.
In fact, he would be better of staying behind the Tyrant guard. That way he would at least gain a cover save by being obscured by the guard.
Following this, the rule would be obsolete.

The rule - which is a special rule that the Tyrant Guard has and NOT the Tyrant allows a Tyramt to join the unit "as if he were an independent caracter".
This is a subjunctive. "As if" is not the same as "he becomes".

The rule does not change the Tyrant into an IC. Simply because it does not say so.
The rule does not say he should be treated like an IC in regards to shooting or cc.
The wording of the rule as written is quite clear.

It's not clear because it creates some pseudo IC-but-not-IC state that has not existed in 40k until this point. Why they couldn't have left it as a retinue (clearly the sort of effect they had intended) I have no idea...

And again I'd like to point out the awkward precedent set by the Space Wolves FAQ's treatment of a similar "as if" situation in regards to counter-assault and furious charge. The entire argument you set forward is based on a strict distinction between the letters used yet we already have an example of the contrary. It is indeed a "GW House Rule", but it goes a good way towards showing that your imaginary line between "as if" and "is treated as/becomes" is not as clear cut as you think it is.

[Bean]

It may not be clear-cut in the minds of the GW authors, Madjob, but it's perfectly clear in real English. The fact that the authors are, as evidenced by their answer in the SW FAQ, idiots doesn't change the fact that the wording is clear.

[Drakkan Vael]

It's not clear because it creates some pseudo IC-but-not-IC state that has not existed in 40k until this point. Why they couldn't have left it as a retinue (clearly the sort of effect they had intended) I have no idea...

And again I'd like to point out the awkward precedent set by the Space Wolves FAQ's treatment of a similar "as if" situation in regards to counter-assault and furious charge. The entire argument you set forward is based on a strict distinction between the letters used yet we already have an example of the contrary. It is indeed a "GW House Rule", but it goes a good way towards showing that your imaginary line between "as if" and "is treated as/becomes" is not as clear cut as you think it is.

I have to disagree. There is no pseudo IC-but-not-IC state. The rule simply says the Tyrant may join the Guard as if he was an IC.
He is not as the rule does not state it.

The only thing I can base the distinction between "as if" and "becomes" or "is treated like" IS the rule as written and nothing else.

You base the assumption to the contrary on a problem in the Space Wolves FAQ that has nothing to do with the problem you detected her at all. It is a completely different situation.

[Caldera02]

Let's have a look at this from another direction:
Is the Tyrant by default an IC? - No.
Is he allowed to join any unit save the Tyrant Guard? - No.
Does the wording of the rule contain the words "the Tyrant guard becomes an IC by joining the Guard?" - No

Why would anyone join a unit of Tyrant Guard, when the Tyrant may be shot at or attacked in close combat while he is part of the unit? He would gain absolutely nothing.
In fact, he would be better of staying behind the Tyrant guard. That way he would at least gain a cover save by being obscured by the guard.
Following this, the rule would be obsolete.

The rule - which is a special rule that the Tyrant Guard has and NOT the Tyrant allows a Tyramt to join the unit "as if he were an independent caracter".
This is a subjunctive. "As if" is not the same as "he becomes".

The rule does not change the Tyrant into an IC. Simply because it does not say so.
The rule does not say he should be treated like an IC in regards to shooting or cc.
The wording of the rule as written is quite clear.

I like this argument. Very well thought out and concise. Having read this, I am inclined to agree and will now play it this way. It makes the most sense. Allowing the Hive Tyrant to join another unit without being an actually IC himself and being susceptible to all of the IC rules.

One side note though, why word it in this manner at all and just retain the old retinue version. The only thing at the moment I can think of is to allow the HT to leave the guard maybe? However, the shieldwall rule only says join and not leave so I still don't understand why they worded the rule in such a manner.

[Ferro]

Let's have a look at this from another direction:
Is the Tyrant by default an IC? - No.
Is he allowed to join any unit save the Tyrant Guard? - No.
Does the wording of the rule contain the words "the Tyrant guard becomes an IC by joining the Guard?" - No

Why would anyone join a unit of Tyrant Guard, when the Tyrant may be shot at or attacked in close combat while he is part of the unit? He would gain absolutely nothing.
In fact, he would be better of staying behind the Tyrant guard. That way he would at least gain a cover save by being obscured by the guard.
Following this, the rule would be obsolete.

The rule - which is a special rule that the Tyrant Guard has and NOT the Tyrant allows a Tyramt to join the unit "as if he were an independent caracter".
This is a subjunctive. "As if" is not the same as "he becomes".

The rule does not change the Tyrant into an IC. Simply because it does not say so.
The rule does not say he should be treated like an IC in regards to shooting or cc.
The wording of the rule as written is quite clear.

Yes. DV nailed it here, gold medal answer.
(just make a small edit, DV: "the Tyrant guard [ <--remove] becomes an IC by joining the Guard?"

[Drakkan Vael]

Yes. DV nailed it here, gold medal answer.
(just make a small edit, DV: "the Tyrant guard [ <--remove] becomes an IC by joining the Guard?"

Did that and thanks for noticing that.

[Lerra]

The annoying thing is that GW could have simply removed the words "as if he were an independent character" if they wanted the tyrant guard to act as a retinue. Adding that phrase only complicates things. It makes me want to strangle GW's editor.

[BuFFo]

The annoying thing is that GW could have simply removed the words "as if he were an independent character" if they wanted the tyrant guard to act as a retinue. Adding that phrase only complicates things. It makes me want to strangle GW's editor.

No, because they AREN'T a Retinue.

A retinue is a unit that the IC joins before a battle and stays until death, or loneliness.

The design behind the Tyrant and Guard is that the Tyrant can Guard can act as two units DURING the game, and when its convenient for the Nid player, they can join and become one.

I think its a wonderful game play mechanic. Very well thought out.