Codex Orks - Informed discussion.

[daboarder]

Nope.

Overall, I enjoy the Codex, a lot easier to make army lists from.

Did any of you notice the Ork specific Force Organisation Chart?

3 HQs
9 Troops
3 Elite
3 Fast Attack
3 Heavy Support
1 Lord of War
1 Fortification

Oh god! oh dear god, that sounds terrible. I mean even the insanely slim eldar 4th ed book had artwork....oh my god!

and who cares about the new FOC,, it hasnt been a limitation for years furthermore this edition is all about pushing unbound, there is no advantage to actually giving orks a new FOC....



edit: This is not entirely correct, the Codex still has various art work throughout, however it has changed the unit entries from unti specific art to pictures of the models, not a bad thing in and of itself, however they maintain the "showcase" section that has pictures of every model, therefore it seems superflous. Not a fan, I would much rather have had more artwork and longer background material. And no apologists that would not mean the codex would cost more, see every other hardback codex for details.

[Pyredragon]

Hey guys, been awhile since I posted and figured I'd share my thoughts on this mess. Orks were my first army and I had a lot of hope for the new book... this failed to deliver any of them. Infact I can feel GW's boney fingers digging so hard at my wallet with this book it's not funny, yes I understand they are a business, but the nerfs to drive sales is just ridiculous with this book.

The biggest thing personally that hurts is the loss of Wazdakka and Zogwort. No I am afraid the relic bike doesn't count. For one, wasn't his guns auto-cannon str on that? And two, the relic does not shift bikers to troops. It's an expensive bike with +1 str to it's guns, not worth it in my opinion. And as for Zogwort, they couldn't have thrown him a bone and made his curse one of the warp powers? He was hilariously good fun to take just for that reason.

The second thing that stings is the loss of all FoC swapping. The only reason I ever ran a Deff Dread was because my Big Mek made him a troop. Nobz got slapped in without a thought as well because they were a troop, now they have to fight over the elite slot. The rampant encouragement to run formations, double force orgs, and unbound, three things your group may not support, is highly unwelcome.

On to general nitpicking. These complaints are more based around my current area meta, your mileage my vary.

Shoota boyz got more expensive but remain the obvious better choice over choppa boyz. The fact they did NOTHING to make choppa's worth taking over the fact that shoota's now cost a point extra is just a slap in the face. Now I'm taking them just to save a few points for toys elsewhere not because their better. Getting grenades for free is nice I guess, but they left the stickbomb chucka in the book as a viechle option so why? Almost everything has assault grenades now.

The loss of cybork body combined with painboyz becoming HQ's is highly annoying. I used to be able to count on my nobz going toe to toe with terminators. Now I have to hope they have enough weight of attacks on the charge to mash them to pulp. Bikes are almost required as without t5 naturally you're str8 bait. Increasing Nobs to t5 would have been fitting and fluffy seeing as it's you know a nob and help ease the loss of cybork. Now I'm reminded of Tyranid Warriors, overcosted for what they do.

The change to Mob Rule is just, meh? I loved how someone pointed out in comments section somewhere "But you can go to ground now!" Oh yeah, great a 6+ cover save and I get to stand around and be shot all over again... Yes in a certain light Mob Rule is kinda fluffy, but two of the three results are bad for most Elite squads outside of combat, and most are bad for blobs as you're pretty much guaranteed to kill a boy or two when you have to test, and you will, alot.

Ramshackle, there's no way around that this is a stupid bad nerf. Everyone screaming that viechles are so worth it now, who seem to be forgetting that glanced to death is still a thing... Also try to point out that negating that pen is a big deal, ignoring the fact it only happens on a 6+. Without Eavy Armor you're pretty much going to lose most of your boyz when that trukk gets popped by an auto-cannon. Which just leads back to GW's mentality of "Buy moar cause we made it so you have too!"

Ghaz is not a lord of war... He is a fancy warboss in mega armor... not a str d spewing titan or tank...

The relics are, just, meh? I dunno, the finkin cap could be good for a laugh, but alot of them are why bother? Headwhoppa's choppa could be replaced by a reliable Power Klaw. The shiny shoota is just an shoota with four extra shots that can kill your own dudes. The lucky stick I could see having use on a model with mega-armor and a KFF, and I guess if you're just gonna slap your big mek in a viechle the tools are a good investment.

Finally the actual book. The layout is annoying. The loss of art for the profiles is aggravating as I prefer art to the Eavy Metal teams work, while keeping the useless splash pages is just dumb. Having to flip all over the book to write an army list is even more unwelcoming. It really just feels like a mess not having the old army roster in the back.

Yes there are some winners in this book. Warbikes got cheaper, Stormboyz get to mob up to 30, The new big guns are awesome - but way overpriced, and Tankbusta's are actually worth it now. Getting to charge after running, with ghetto fleet is great, I don't believe in any of that magic pull a bunny out of your *** max distance crap people spout off about but yeah charge + run = good for the green horde.

I don't think my army is dead, but my orks were never my competitive army. I played them to mess around and push a lot of lovingly converted models across the table, which is what I now HAVE to do. Orks strength lies in numbers, and this means I get to listen to alot of "Why don't you run smaller mobs in trukks..." "You should make movement trays..." "Well your turn I'm gonna go have a nap, wake me up in an hour." You know all those jokes that are funny the first time but now you've heard it to the point you just wanna chuck models at someone.

Overall, just yeah, it's not a good book. I'm not pleased I spent fifty dollars on this and I don't even have someone to blame for the bad writing because they hide under that blanket committee term now. You should own up to your failures and critics, not hide from them, if you're tired of being told you do a bad job you should do a better job.

[sorienor]

Everything said so far is spot on. They changed things that didn't need changing, and didn't change or made worse the things that did.

There is no sane reason to get rid of the invul for characters. Especially replaced with fnp, and not even real fnp at that. The new mob rule sounds bad on paper and even worse in practice. The never-ending green tide either runs away at the first sign of trouble or kills as many models itself as you lose to the enemy. Maybe if it was d3 instead of d6 or S3 instead of S4, it wouldn't be so bad. Or ramshackle was a downgrade on a 4+ instead of a 6+.

Hypothetically you could lose an entire unit of trukk boys JUST from a combination of the vehicle explosion and a failed pinning test.

I just re-costed my last 2k list that I played a week ago. Now it's 2032pts and has already lost some of it's effectiveness (mainly due to characters not having the invul - challenges? what challenges?!?) before removing things to get back to 2k.

They took away the one thing, the ONE thing Orks had going for them ...durability. In a meta that is almost entirely shooting, having zero chance of surviving against shooting means you don't really have a chance.

Is this how the 'nid players felt in 2010?

[blueshift]

... am i insane? am i the only person digging this new book?

3x warbuggies with TL BS for .... very cheap.

3x lobbas that would be the envy of any AM infantry unit... super cheap.

I really don't mind taking all my pain boyz and MOVING THEM TO WHICHEVER UNIT I PLEASE.

Also, might I be the only person in this thread that understands that you may choose unlimited standard force orgs now? Or did I read that wrong? 1x primary and 2x combined arms should do the trick to have tons of painboyz, tons of warbosses, tons of big meks playing their usual supporting roles!

People complaining about how mobs of orks are no longer fearless.. you need a warboss with a bosspole. LD9 with a reroll is good. Take a horde detachment and you can have 3 warbosses and 90 boyz. If you sprint directly across the board and screen with crap like Killa Kanz, Morka/Gorkanauts, warbuggies, bikes, etc. you will make it into melee with a lot of green, very likely on turn 2 if your opponent holds their ground.

And another thing, Kanz with a rokkit launcha are the same price. They lost DCCW but that just seems logical. I still think a mob of 5 would soak enough fire to be very useful in almost any list.

I agree the apparent OP status of a Morkanaut with that massive KFF bubble (RAW KFF rules state you definitely have a bubble as the vehicle IS the bearer) may just be too much to resist and that certainly supports a GW money grab unit theory.

I don't feel too bad about retooling my big ork army for this new edition because it looks like I'll have a lot more models flying around causing utter mayhem on the table.

edit: my god, look at deffkoptaz! SO CHEAP

and my god, look at snikrot! "from any board edge" wahoo!

[Brad Richards]

im just gonna throw this out there. 90 slugga boyz with eavy armor and a painboy in each squad for feel no pain.. makes for some pretty survivable orks that will wreck things in combat

[Brother Sutek]

I for one am absolutely furious with this book. It was pretty widely accepted that orks had been laboring quietly under a lot of rule-based nerfs for a while now, and were in desperate need of a boost to compensate for a playstyle that didn't really pay big dividends under 6-7th.


All the things people wanted out of a new ork book just aren't here, and in fact they're losing much of what they liked about the old one.

In my opinion this is the worst book GW has ever produced, and the first time a brand new codex update has started off on the bottom of the pile in everything from power level to layout. As a ork player for more than 20 years, I'm shocked, insulted, and infuriated by this new so-called "ork" book.

Haven't seen the new Tomb King book then have you? On a more serious note I agree for the most part and am annoyed that this is how they choose to run the greenskins. I understand that they want to lower the powercreep and make money by selling more models but not much in this book really hit me with a "Wow, that's going to be fun to run" moment. It's brand new so I'll wait to see after a few months but initial feelings are to keep the Orks on the shelf and keep running my IG and DA's.

[daboarder]

Or the tyranid book

Lets be honest. This is gw and if you're not one of their pet armies then you are **** outta luck

[Anggul]

On the upside, 'ere we go is great for them. Some are questioning why Boyz didn't get cheaper but I would say 'ere we go is a good enough rule to keep them at the same cost.

Flash gitz can actually do something now with all those shots at a lower price rather than being insanely expensive for one shot each and having to pay even more points for upgrades. They're also still good in close combat as they're still Nobz, so you can roll them up blasting away and charge in to smash what's left. I don't know if they're worthwhile still when you could just have a load of Shoota Boyz, but I haven't looked at them in much depth.

The new mob rule means units that couldn't have more than 10 guys actually benefit from it now. Much less likely to run away at low numbers. You're losing maybe a couple of Boyz to pass a failed Ld check. That's pretty good I think. I would say it beats the hell out of Tyranid 'feed' but nothing should be compared to the stupidity that is the current iteration of instinctive behaviour. I can definitely see how it would start to take it's toll if you're taking multiple Ld checks on your way up the field over a couple of turns, you might actually lose a noticeable number of Boyz to it. There are a lot more viable fast elements for the army now though, so your opponent isn't going to have the option of pouring firepower into mobs on foot if they don't want the faster guys to mulch them. With 'ere we go and more efficient fast units it shouldn't take quite as long as it did to get into combat.

Cybork should always have been FnP, it was silly that bionics gave people that, but not Ork bionics. Against most things you're going to get your normal save as well as the FnP, so in many ways it's better. Worse against S8+ obviously, but they weren't going to be surviving that anyway.

Painboyz are a mixed deal. On the one hand it's annoying that they take up an HQ slot, they should have been like Meks where you get one per HQ. On the other hand you can join them to any squad rather than just being for Nobz, which is very nice indeed.

A few nice points drops. The drops for Bikers and Stormboyz are great, they make it so Nob Bikers aren't superior to normal Bikers in pretty much every way any more. Also nice for Kommandos, especially with the addition of stealth. I can understand Burnas getting an increase due to wall of death and the ability to use burnas in both modes in the same turn. Annoying for an already pricey unit but great in a 'naut or a few in a Trukk (which they can take dedicated now, hurrah!). Tank Bustas got much better along with the same boon of dedicated Trukks. Buggies seem better too.

There are a few annoying losses, but there are also a lot of really good things. As a point on the lack of FOC changes, it doesn't matter so much now that everything scores. Nobz vying for elites slots is a pain I guess.

Someone above said the bike doesn't make up for Wazdakka. Kind of does. Makes basically the same thing but the guns are more for 3+ armour killing than anti-vehicle.

Oh, and grot riggers are very tasty.

It's not great, but some things notably improved while hardly anyway was straight-up nerfed. Got away better than Tyranids anyway, not that that's a valid consolation. I would have liked Meganobz to be cheaper, but no doubt people who like Terminators are feeling the same way. Two wounds is usually better than a 5++ at least.

Edit: I somehow forgot about the Big Gunz. Traktor kannons are terrifying. I don't want my flyrant anywhere near those things. The Big Gunz in general are good except for the bubble chukka and zzap gun. I don't understand how they still keep screwing up the zzap gun. I guess bringing out fancy new models made them even less likely to make it useful again.

[Erik Setzer]

Nope.

Overall, I enjoy the Codex, a lot easier to make army lists from.

Did any of you notice the Ork specific Force Organisation Chart?

There's another one in the Ghazghkull supplement. Changes from basic Combined Arms Detachment are +1 Elite, +2 Troops, 1 Elite compulsory. You can reroll the Warlord trait if taken from the Ghaz book, and you roll a D6 for each of your units before the game (+1 for Troops) and on a 6+ they're Deep Striking.

They're options you can take in place of the CAD, and their rules replace those, so you can have a Primary Detachment without Objective Secured.

- - - Updated - - -

... am i insane? am i the only person digging this new book?

No, I've been having fun looking it over, and my talking about it has some other people wanting to hop into Orks, too. I'm going to hopefully get in a couple games next weekend (had a thing this weekend), but so far I think it's not bad. It's not a codex you can look at and immediately see something game-breaking, but I'm glad about that. It's part of the charm of Orks, we actually have a reasonably balanced army.

The numerous options between the two books with two new detachments and a boatload of formations will allow for some creative builds. Since formations are starting to be more of a thing now, it'd be nice to see tournaments allow them, but I'm find using them in pick-up games for now.

[Erik Setzer]

Okay, this looks like the perfect place for a "Let's Break the Book" list. In the style of Goatboy or whoever writes those articles where he tries to come up with a daft list.

Detachment 1: Horde Detachment
HQ: Big Mek with KFF, Mega-Armor 125
HQ: Big Mek with KFF, Mega-Armor 125
HQ: Big Mek with KFF, Mega-Armor 125
Heavy Support: 15 Lootas 210
Heavy Support: 15 Lootas 210
Heavy Support: 15 Lootas 210
Troops: 10 Boyz with Nob in Trukk 100
Troops: 10 Boyz with Nob in Trukk 100
Troops: 10 Boyz with Nob in Trukk 100

Detachment 2: Allied Detachment (Waagh! Ghazghkull)
HQ: Big Mek, Mega-Armor, 4+ KFF 150
Heavy Support: 5 Smasha Guns, max extra grew, 5 ammo runts 195
Troops: 10 Boyz with Nob in Trukk 100
Troops: 10 Boyz with Nob in Trukk 100

Total: 1850


The first three Big Meks join a unit of Lootas each, the allied Big Mek joins the Mek Gunz. Not only are they providing an inv. save against shooting attacks (including Template weapons and Barrage weapons), the Mega-Armour's Slow and Purposeful allows the Lootas and Gunz to move and fire at full BS (and even charge if they want to). The Lootas should tear apart light vehicles, flyers, and squads, and maybe even hurt monstrous creatures. The Smasha Guns can handle heavy armor and monstrous creatures on a good roll. The Boyz in Trukks can rush out to grab objectives, with the two in the Allied Detachment having the added bonus of having Objective Secured. If you feel the need for some PKs, you can ditch one Trukk mob from the Allied Detachment and give PKs to all four of the other Nobz. The Big Meks, of course, will have their MA's built-in PK.

So you walk across the table with three units firing D3x15 S7 shots (and the Mek's shoota), one unit firing five SD6+4 AP1 shots, and you have a few mobs to go snatch objectives late.

I'm sure others can come up with better, but this is funny enough.