Getting the most out of - Multilators

[Mr Mystery]

Hello, good afternoon, and welcome.

Following up on a similar thread about that red-headed stepchild of the Hivemind, Pyrovores, I present for your delectation a second thread, this time dealing with Mutilators.

For those who missed the first thread - This is not about 'nyeh nyeh, stupid internet are wrong'. It's not about suddenly proclaiming a maligned unit the best thing since sliced Jesus.

What this thread is about is exploring what the unit can and can't do, and what one might expect from it if you really wanted to/had to field them.

So without further ado, here we go.

Pros - Well, they're actually pretty tough. 2 wound Terminator equivalents, and Daemonic to boot, bringing Fear to the party. So far so reasonable. They're also pretty flexible when it comes to smashing stuff in HTH. Your choice of matched Powerfists, Chainfists and Lightning Claws. There's nothing they can't realistically threaten in a bout of fisticuffs........but.....that's about it to be honest.

Cons - Slow and Purposeful. On an assault unit. Not good at all. Also quite pricey in points. I wouldn't say they're a total rip off, but considering they really want a transport if not deepstriking in, those points are adding up pretty quick. And the real kicker? They don't really do anything another unit can't do, but with the added benefit of some guns. Look at their stablemate, Obliterators. Loadsa dakka, and a powerfist. In short, there's not a great deal fundamentally wrong with Mutilators (except S&P of course), it's just there are better choices within their army to get their specialist job done.

So, if you had no choice, and no alternative units in your army, how would you go about getting the most out of Mutilators?

[Khan of Rotterdam]

I played against a Chaos marine army with a land raider with mutilators and a special character in it, another land raider with kharn and a unit of marines, a bloodthirster, cultists and some nurglings to round it off.

Mission was kill points, needless to say he took me to the cleaners. He went on to take best chaos marine player (throne of skulls last may).

[Caitsidhe]

Why is it that these positive voices with anecdotal stories about well-known poorly performing units always appear with like 1-10 posts and have only arrived? I know it could just be a coincidence but it is such a consistent coincidence. The best thing you can get out of Mutilators is pick them up cheap via barter or trade and convert them to Obliterators by adding some guns.

I realize you are trying to look for a positive in them Mr. Mystery, but your own write up kind of tells their story completely already. They don't perform any better than Obliterators and do less. They aren't awful, like say Warp Talons, but they sure as heck aren't useful either.

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I suppose if I was FORCED to use them, I could use Daemon Allies to bring in the artifact which allows me to lower a Invulnerable save. If I had them Mark of Tzentch I could get them down to a 2+/2+ and if Mark of Nurgle (to avoid instant death from a lot of things) 2+/3+ which would finally get them on par with Storm Shields. Even this, however, begs the question of why I wouldn't just do this with Oblits who have a proven track records, options, and fight just as well in hand to hand with their Power Fists.

[hyudun]

Mutilators are actually the best Chaos non-HQ option once in melee, IMO. They're the cheapest (pts/wound and attacks) unit with 2+/5++ AND power weapons for all, not to mention they lose attacks more slowly as it takes 2 wounds to remove each model, compared to 1 for Terminators. Better yet, they can take on hordes, MEQ, TEQ, and even vehicles with great efficiency, though at the cost of being slightly less than maximum efficient every other turn. Their main shortcomings are: (1) getting them into combat, (2) low-wound count (6 max), (3) hidden powerfists as they can't take challenges, and (4) instant death.

I'd give them all Marks of Khorne and run them with Cypher for both Rage and Hit-and-Run so you can maximize your attacks/turn and take full advantage of the Mutilators' flexibility. Alternatively, you may want to go Mark of Nurgle to take care of that instant death issue and really Rage is only giving you 3 extra attacks on the charge due to low model count (yeah, take MoN instead). Either put them in a Landraider or infiltrate them on the board - Cypher also gives them Shrouded so they should last even if they get close to the enemy's gunline. The Landraider option is easier to build around, but the Infiltrate option is more interesting and requires the rest of your army to be tailored around it. In Infiltrate route, I'd take Huron so I can have a supporting Infiltrating unit up there. Possibly Spawn with Mark of Nurgle, for a fast, multi-wound unit that will attract similar weapons fire (over-saturate them with targets) as the Cy-Multilators along with a Chaos Lord and Mark of Nurgle on bike with Melta Bombs and a Powerfist - maybe Burning brand as well; this unit is the hammer to the anvil that are the Cy-Mutilators. I'd also ally-in Daemons for Be'Lakor, who will ideally keep close to the spawn, giving himself and them shrouded (via psychic power) and/or casting Invisibility on Cy-Multilators. Take Plaguebearers as a durable backfield objective holder as the mandatory allied troop choice, with the option to deep-striking forward if the mission calls for it. Fill out troops and other slots as needed and as points limit allows - personally I like Plague Marines. Huron can help support a mid- or far-field objective grabber as a charge deterrent.

Edit: MoN is probably a better choice than MoK. Being harder to wound and immunity to instant death from anything but str 10 is much better than a max of 3 incremental attacks on the charge.

[Caitsidhe]

Mutilators are actually the best Chaos non-HQ option once in melee, IMO.

With all due respect, your opinion is wrong. They are Terminators that cannot shoot. Can you demonstrate the math you used to arrive at this conclusion? I am not going to rule out that I missing something, but you are going to have to lay this out for me.

They're the cheapest (pts/wound and attacks) unit with 2+/5++ AND power weapons for all.

They are cheaper than Terminators (although not by a huge margin) when you compare three of them to six Terminators. Their weapon selection shifts do not make up for their inability to shoot. This is the era of the gun and most close combat units are dead long before contact with the enemy. Not being able to shoot reduces them to an effective damage zero if/when they don't make it to close combat. The Terminators, by contrast, will be shooting while closing. Moreover, the Terminators gain MORE attacks because of the greater number of bodies. The Mutilators may equate to six wounds but they do NOT equate to equal attacks. The Terminators double their attacks at only a minor difference in price. Again, I'd like to understand how you are arriving at your calculations.

Better yet, they can take on hordes, MEQ, or TEQ with great efficiency, though at the cost of being slightly less efficient every other turn.

Please explain why they are any better at taking on Hordes? They can get an extra attack each by manifesting the right weapons but they are still just three bodies with basic attacks +1. All the Marks are irrelevant because those can be applied to others as well Thus, in comparison, you need only look at the basic stats. I grant you that Mutilators can swap out weapons but you can likewise mix weapon configurations for Terminators to cover all eventualities. You even have the perk of SHOOTING those Hordes (heavy flamers being particularly good).

Their shortcomings are three-fold: (1) getting them into combat, (2) low-wound count (6 max), and (2) hidden powerfists.

We agree here. These are three big shortcomings. There are more, of course, not the least of which is the fact that they don't shoot. Another is the fact that they are NOT Fearless. This is helpful to Obliterators who I do have "go to ground" from time to time for tactical reasons. For a dedicated close combat unit it is horrible. Their Leadership is (8). You can boost to this nine of course by taking VOTLW but there is another price increase. Shall I go on? There are other big shortcomings.

I'd give them all Marks of Khorne and run them with Cypher for both Rage and Hit-and-Run. Either put them in a Landraider or infiltrate them on the board - Cypher also gives them Shrouded so they should last even if they get close to the enemy's gunline.

Cypher is wicked expensive and he is wasted on a close combat unit. Why? Why? Why! I have to question your sanity here. Cypher is a 190pts by himself. Hit & Run is good on SHOOTING units who get tied up and you want to free on your opponent's turn so you can shoot again Mutilators, should they be so lucky as to make it to close combat do NOT want to get out of it. Shrouding is nice and all but close combat units rarely have the luxury of getting to decide when and where they will be shot at. This means that MOST of the time the benefit you get from that Shrouding will be no better than you would have gotten from your Invulnerable save. Cypher does NOT give Mutilators Infiltrate. You would have to have Huron or another Warlord with the power to give that to them so Cypher could join them. Moreover, they can't take a dedicated Landraider to infiltrate with anyway. Now you are talking about getting a damn Proteus which isn't an assault vehicle. You have a LOT of clarifications to make because either you don't understand some rules, or you are talking about something completely different that what is making it into your text.

The Landraider option is easier to build around, but the Infiltrate option is more interesting and requires the rest of your army to be tailored around it. In Infiltrate route, I'd take Huron so I can have a supporting Infiltrating unit up there. Possibly Spawn with Mark of Nurgle, for a fast, multi-wound unit that will attract similar weapons fire as the Cy-Multilators along with a Chaos Lord with Melta Bombs and a Powerfist - maybe Burning brand as well; this unit is the hammer to the anvil that are the Cy-Mutilators. I'd also ally-in Daemons for Be'Lakor, who will ideally keep close to the spawn, giving himself and them shrouded (via psychic power) and/or casting invisibility on Cy-Multilators. Take Plaguebearers as a durable backfield objective holder, with the option to deep-striking forward if the mission calls for it. Fill out troops and other slots as needed and as points limit allows.

I am speechless. How many points are you going to spend to try and make Mutilators work? At least this part of your post indicates some understanding of Infiltrate. You do know you CANNOT infiltrate Mutilators in a Land Raider right? Cypher doesn't give that. Huron can give it to the Mutilators but they cannot impart it to a Land Raider. I get the impression you "might" know this (although it is hazy) but my question would be why not just take a Daemon Prince for your close combat option? After all the crazy stuff you are trying to include, a tricked out Daemon Prince would be a BARGAIN by comparison.

[hyudun]

Caitsidhe - yep, definitely got some things wrong in my post, so allow me to explain and/or correct. Also, I didn't bother mathhammering because I know I am shoehorning a size 20 foot into a size 6 shoe and really I'm just tackling this problem for fun than in any seriousness.

With all due respect, your opinion is wrong. They are Terminators that cannot shoot. Can you demonstrate the math you used to arrive at this conclusion? I am not going to rule out that I missing something, but you are going to have to lay this out for me..

Allow me to think aloud in more detail: Shooting is irrelevant once in melee. Mutilators are 27.5 points/wound, compared to Termies at 38 points/wound w/ powerfist. For attacks, Mutilators are 55pts/(2 attacks, +1 matched, +1 charge) = 13.75 pts/attack, compared to 38/(2 attacks, +1 charge) = 12.67 pts/attack. Mutilators can/have to switch weapons in melee which comes with various benefits and penalties that I'm not going to expend the effort to quantify because again this is a discussion for entertainment only. Sure you can take more terminators overall, but I'm trying to minimize the cost of what ultimately serves better as a "distraction carnifex".

I will refine my position in that in small units and particularly smaller point games, they are as good or better in melee than Terminators. Fine if you disagree with me. The truth is ultimately neither of us will use them in a competitive setting for more or less the same reasons.

Another is the fact that they are NOT Fearless.

Totally forgot about the Fearless thing, though I meant to clarify that I'd be naming off the biggest shortcomings and I tend not to run into the issue of having to take leadership tests with my Obliterators since I play small games and run them in squads of 1 and everything I throw into melee for CSM IS fearless. I just don't think about it normally for CSM.

Cypher is wicked expensive...(and so on)

Entertainment. Shoehorn. However, regarding Infiltrate, I did get confused and I was thinking about his formation. Reading it, it appears that the entire formation gets infiltrate, so that frees up an HQ slot (no Daemons ally necessary for Be'lakor), but then burdens you with Chosen.

I am speechless. How many points are you going to spend to try and make Mutilators work?

That was the point of the question. Impossible tasks are sometimes fun to attempt to take on. I recommend drinking a few beers (assuming you are of age and not an angry drunk) before your next reply.

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Oh, and yes I know you can't Infiltrate a non-dedicated transport. My post very clearly said Infiltrate OR put them in a Land Raider.

[Caitsidhe]

That was the point of the question. Impossible tasks are sometimes fun to attempt to take on. I recommend drinking a few beers (assuming you are of age and not an angry drunk) before your next reply.

I can accept "for fun", although I took your original post as a serious, logistical approach. You didn't caveat the first one with that stance. I'm afraid I'm an all business kind of guy when it comes to this stuff, so I can easily miss when someone is doing something more capricious. I am more than old an enough, but happen to be a non-drinker; I can binge on chocolate though.

[Mr Mystery]

So to move away from unit comparisons, against which armies do you find/feel Mutilators do well against?

[Caitsidhe]

So to move away from unit comparisons, against which armies do you find/feel Mutilators do well against?

Hrm. That is a difficult question. In 7th Edition we live in the era of "swiss army knife" builds where there will always be something that kills Terminators (both shooting and close combat). I don't think Mutilators are good against any properly balanced "all comer" army because they will never make it to combat with enough juice left to give you a return. Bugs have too many AP-2 Monstrous Creatures to rip them apart and even the normal size guys have so many volume of attacks they will be overwhelmed. Against other CSM players they will get obliterated. Imperials will kill them with Grav Weapons these days, the best Mutilator removal weapon in the game (and they are in every army I face these days). Dark Eldar poison. Eldar and Tau provide volume of AP-2 and AP-1 fire. Imperial Guard (I can't get used to their new name) will usually blow them apart with all sorts of things. Grey Knights are awesome all the way around and get extra nifty against Daemons. The list goes on and on. Mutilators (like all CSM Terminators) simply can't keep up because they can't get to combat fast enough. Give us a Formation in the coming months that lets them assault the turn they deep strike in..... and/or let them manifest Storm Shields... or any kind of perk that makes them BETTER at the one job they do. They need a Formation rule perk to offset the suck. Hellbrutes got that when they let them Deep Strike and come in a Squadron. It didn't make them overtly powerful but made them just good enough that I am willing to consider them in 2K+ lists. Mutilators need to be better at their job, at least better at it than their Obliterator counterparts.

I suppose they "might" be useful against Chaos Daemons if you had someone playing a "horde" style Daemons list, but let's be honest here, there are always enough Monstrous Creatures in those lists to take care of Mutilators.

[Kazzigum]

Hello, good afternoon, and welcome.

Following up on a similar thread about that red-headed stepchild of the Hivemind, Pyrovores, I present for your delectation a second thread, this time dealing with Mutilators.

For those who missed the first thread - This is not about 'nyeh nyeh, stupid internet are wrong'. It's not about suddenly proclaiming a maligned unit the best thing since sliced Jesus.

What this thread is about is exploring what the unit can and can't do, and what one might expect from it if you really wanted to/had to field them.

So without further ado, here we go.

Pros - Well, they're actually pretty tough. 2 wound Terminator equivalents, and Daemonic to boot, bringing Fear to the party. So far so reasonable. They're also pretty flexible when it comes to smashing stuff in HTH. Your choice of matched Powerfists, Chainfists and Lightning Claws. There's nothing they can't realistically threaten in a bout of fisticuffs........but.....that's about it to be honest.

Cons - Slow and Purposeful. On an assault unit. Not good at all. Also quite pricey in points. I wouldn't say they're a total rip off, but considering they really want a transport if not deepstriking in, those points are adding up pretty quick. And the real kicker? They don't really do anything another unit can't do, but with the added benefit of some guns. Look at their stablemate, Obliterators. Loadsa dakka, and a powerfist. In short, there's not a great deal fundamentally wrong with Mutilators (except S&P of course), it's just there are better choices within their army to get their specialist job done.

So, if you had no choice, and no alternative units in your army, how would you go about getting the most out of Mutilators?

Well, I always bring mutilators in my Thousand Sons army. Their weaknesses are many, but I believe in this age of the game, nearly every unit can be successful if you analyze it and use it for its purpose within the structure of your particular army. So, having said that, here's how I use them.

I run 2-3 seperate units of a single mutilated with the Mark of Tzeentch and VotLW. That's 67 points a unit, which I consider cheap for what they do. And mostly, that's absorb fire. But usually, it's a lot of fire. I find that to destroy them, the opponent must really commit to the attempt, as small units firing on them simply get brushed aside. And all fire dedicated to eliminating the mutilators is not used on the onrushing maulerfiends and spawn. And the best part is, usually, the opponent cannot ignore them, as vehicles and most backfield units are destroyed, or at the least tied up, by even a single mutilator. I consider 134 points, give or take, well worth the cost for what I get.

A couple points worth considering:

-As there is only one model, its leadership issues rarely matter, as usually it's dead when it would check.
-I run my mutilators aggressively as suicide units. Sometimes I lose them to scatter, but sometimes people get caught up with all the magic I'm tossing around and the maulerfiends and just ignore the mutilators or underestimate them. I've had single mutilators do amazing stuff.
-With two 3rd lvl sorcerers, and the scrolls of Magnus in play, I often have certain spells that can augment their performance. The new Cursed Earth combos great with them. However, I will emphasize that casting spells to help them is NOT the plan going in. But over the course of a game, sometimes an opportunity comes up, especially when one of your sorcerers doesn't have anything better to cast.
--I'm aware that this is not a highest level of big tournament play tactic. However, barring that, you might be surprised they perform their task.

I will say this, I hate the mutilator models -- they're just super ugly. Mine are converted with wealth lower halves and the tomb guardian upper halves. Look awesome and fit my TS much better.