The Forgotten Knight

[DrBored]

So your definition of "good friendly game" is "bring only models I can easily kill" then? What if the other player had been playing Space Marines with any amount of Terminators (unless he had a Demolisher or Executioner, they're going to shrug off anything thrown at them). Or Flyers. Or Bikes. By the same token, 3 Knights is between 1110 and 1125 points. At that points level, nobody should be playing Leman Russes, because it's not fair to force people to bring weapons to breach AV 14 in that low of points. Unless the Knight player deliberately withheld information on what his army could do, your IG guy is a poor sport . . . or his gaming hours don't often coincide with your, did you ever think of that one?

What Herzlos said.

But look at the context of the event. If you sit down with a veteran player and decide 'Yeah, let's play some tough match-up games', great, go for it, bring your Knights (that you wasted lots of money on). But against a new player to your FLGS? Why the hell would you want to discourage a new player so badly that they never show up at your gaming store again? Why wouldn't you discuss with him the kind of game he'd want to play and then cater to that, instead of roflstomping him out the door?

That's my bias with Knights, and armies full of fliers, and pretty much anything made to be WAAC or 'super competitive' or what have you. It makes no room for games that promote the hobby, particularly to new, potentially inexperienced players.

[Harley]

DrBored, someone else getting more variety and options does not somehow detract from your own ability and options. Sorry some people have a tough time against Knights. That's no reason to piss on their parade though.

This is a genius move on the part of GW. A "Special" character which requires no special model yet will increase sale of existing models. Chapterhouse and other 3rd party model makers have no reason to make a specific Green Knight since the only thing differentiating him is the paint scheme and his fluff. GW sells more green paint, Knight models and players get more options. Win Win.

[Caitsidhe]

Can I make them go boom? Sure. Is it easy? No. Did they need an even harder to kill option? No. What they needed were interesting support units, i.e. perhaps Knight Techs who follow them around in 4x4 vehicles to try and repair them. Look, I can pack a metric ton of Melta into my armies (and I do) but taking down more than one Knight a game is really difficult. They are just that fast and once in combat with you are that hard. It is freaking stupid that a 1500pt game can get three of them on the table. It is one more example of poorly tested models in the larger context.

I'm having to passing up a tournament this weekend because the TO is allowing Knights but disallowing all Data Slates, Lords of War, and limiting us to two sources. For me, as a CSM player, this means I pretty much automatically lose against any three Knight list and will have a hell of time taking out more than one at a time (and even that ties up most of my best shooting). My answer to Knights has been Be'Lakor who is STR-7 and has Armourbane (the Invisibility is secondary to that) because he can actually go toe to toe with a Knight and kill one. This seems fair enough since he costs as much. Being denied any options to increase my chance of killing them reduces me to being someone else's practice dummy for 6-8 hours. No thank you. If Knights were limited to a single one per army (and if more armies had access to them) they wouldn't be so bad. But since I keep seeing them in large groups, or combined with a Lord of War (with the rest of the army just window dressing) they are obscene. Giving them a supercharged version is just more tunnel vision.

[Harley]

You're passing up a tourney because there is one list variation that may give you trouble? Wow... that just seems like very poor sportsmanship.

Also keep in mind that if a TO is disallowing Data Slates then they should also be disallowing WD supplements such as this Green Knight.

[Charon]

You dont need the Green knight.
Go Main Detatchment Knights (which gives you an guaranteed +1 WS +1BF 3++ and an very hard to kill warlord for additional point costs) and 2nd detatchemnt whatever you like.

Knights are just plain stupid against an all-comer army.

[DWest]

But look at the context of the event. If you sit down with a veteran player and decide 'Yeah, let's play some tough match-up games', great, go for it, bring your Knights (that you wasted lots of money on). But against a new player to your FLGS? Why the hell would you want to discourage a new player so badly that they never show up at your gaming store again? Why wouldn't you discuss with him the kind of game he'd want to play and then cater to that, instead of roflstomping him out the door?

Again, where's your evidence that a) he was a new player and b) quit for good? A "fully painted Mordian" army doesn't sound like a new player to me; maybe somebody who's been out since 2nd/3rd edition, but he should at least be familiar with some of the tricks. What did the guy bring to deal with AV 14? What did he bring to deal with 2+ armor? Everything is "broken" when you don't bring the tools to actually kill anything.

[Gryphon]

I've played my share of games against Knights. They aren't super hard to take down IF you're prepared for them. I've played against knight-only armies, and let me make one point perfectly clear:

ARMIES MADE ENTIRELY OF KNIGHTS DO NOT NEED VARIETY. In my opinion, an all-knight army is simply the stupidest thing that GW has produced. It's an abomination. It's not that it's hard to beat, impossible to beat, or anything like that.. It's that it's not fun to play against. You either knock the Knights out because you know their gimmicks, or you're slaughtered because your army doesn't have enough anti-tank to deal with them. I don't care what upgrades or weapons they have, it's the platform that they're built on that makes them hard to deal with.

I'd be very, very happy if GW and Forgeworld stopped making Knights, apologized to the world for doing something this idiotic, and then released a FAQ that made them illegal to play. The game as a whole would miss nothing.

But, don't let my hot-headed rant interrupt your fun. I'm just a crazed knucklehead that witnessed one guy bring a 3-knight army against a guy that I had never seen before at my FLGS. He came in with his very well put together Mordian Guard army, most of it painted! He had Chimeras and Hellhounds and a Leman Russ or two, and was looking for a good, friendly game to dip his feet back into 40k.

I have not seen that player since. The Knights walked all over him, and I felt terribly, terribly bad for the guy. I wanted to deck the Knight player in the face for pulling that stupid stunt on a new player, and as a result, our community at my FLGS is weaker.

By all means, tell me how important it is to have more variety with harder-to-kill Knights on the field.

The Knights aren't the problem, but the player with the Knights is. The Knight player should have played something else, or taken out a knight, and added something else, if the other guy was just looking for a friendly game.
Having said that I want the rules for the Forgotten Knight myself. I only have one knight, and probably will only ever play one knight. I like having the option for some goof firepower. The knight I have is painted in Iron Hands colors, so my "Forgotten Knight" will be the "Iron Knight."

[This Dave]

The Knights aren't the problem, but the player with the Knights is. The Knight player should have played something else, or taken out a knight, and added something else, if the other guy was just looking for a friendly game.

Did the guy with the Knights bring a whole other army with him as well as the Knights?

[Mr Mystery]

The Knights aren't the problem, but the player with the Knights is. The Knight player should have played something else, or taken out a knight, and added something else, if the other guy was just looking for a friendly game.

Why? If it's a friendly game, who cares about the overall outcome? At what point does one person's hobby preference take precedence over the next person? Who gets to set the 'acceptable standard'?

[Charon]

Why? If it's a friendly game, who cares about the overall outcome? At what point does one person's hobby preference take precedence over the next person? Who gets to set the 'acceptable standard'?

At the point where one players army is not doing anything during the entire game. The friendly game doesnt care about the "outcome" but it does care about the stuff between "start" and "outcome". and if you drop your knights gainst the average all-comers army, the stuff between "start" and "outcome" tends to be unfun, frustrating and one-sided for one of the players.