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  1. #51

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    drop pods work great for marines & only marines and only if you're prepared to lose easily 15-20 marines the turn they arrive, before you get to shoot your own guns to the interceptor fire as you pile out of the pods - assuming the Tau player uses all his interceptor because, why wouldn't he? If he doesn't, his models wont get to shoot, whereas if he does he'll get to remove more of your models than you will of his, and next turn when he can't shoot he'll be able to move & run away from you to put distance between the forces.

    How does that help anyone else? How does a chaos army defeat them? Daemons? Orks? Battle Sisters ?

    Regarding any type of gentleman's agreement - this is up to player & gaming group taste. 1/2 the respondees to this thread have indicated that the list is probably a bit on the hard side for pickup games, I can guarantee you it is no FUN to play against, beyond that I have no opinion, except that I want to beat it with a well balanced list.

  2. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by clever handle View Post
    drop pods work great for marines & only marines and only if you're prepared to lose easily 15-20 marines the turn they arrive, before you get to shoot your own guns to the interceptor fire as you pile out of the pods - assuming the Tau player uses all his interceptor because, why wouldn't he? If he doesn't, his models wont get to shoot, whereas if he does he'll get to remove more of your models than you will of his, and next turn when he can't shoot he'll be able to move & run away from you to put distance between the forces.
    Excuse the hyperbole, but cry me a river. There are other Drop & Pop (I know because I'm CSM and do it all the time without Drop Pods). The Interceptor fire isn't too awful and depending on how you land you can get cover from some of it (not the stuff that ignore covers obviously), and Marker Lights don't work in your turn so some of these guys aren't that accurate to begin with. Look, if you want a REAL discussion of how to beat the army, we can do that. If you are just looking for confirmation that it is "too hard" you are talking to the wrong guy. We all have to fight that list. It isn't rare. It is pretty damn common. Are you going to get shot up? Yes. What else is new. You are playing Tau.

    How does that help anyone else? How does a chaos army defeat them? Daemons? Orks? Battle Sisters ?
    I cover this above. I am a Chaos army. I can Drop & Pop too. Most people can. More and more I don't think you are asking honest questions. You are trying to angle this conversation so people agree with you and you can go to this guy and say, "look the interwebs says you are playing too hard a list." I call serious B.S. on that. You can have all the Drop & Pop you want. That is what 7th Edition is all about. Anyone and everyone can put whatever they want into their list. Can you play pure sisters against that army? No. I think you will get your butt handed to you. Guess what? That isn't the Tau player's problem. You are the one choosing to play a list that gets its butt handed to them by nearly EVERYONE. Mix those gals up with someone who helps cover their glaring weaknesses. If this was an earlier edition, you might have a case. In 7th Edition, you just sound like someone making excuses. All the tools are there if you choose to go get them as your Tau player obviously has done. He built that army. It isn't cheap. You can do the same.

    Regarding any type of gentleman's agreement - this is up to player & gaming group taste. 1/2 the respondees to this thread have indicated that the list is probably a bit on the hard side for pickup games, I can guarantee you it is no FUN to play against, beyond that I have no opinion, except that I want to beat it with a well balanced list.
    I have played against it. You and I measure fun differently. I play for the challenge. As my friend Kerstan will tell you, I buy a new video game, set the difficulty at maximum and play it there. I don't understand walking through it as the lower levels. To me the fun in a strategy game is to play it. I don't measure my fun in guaranteed wins or how long it takes. In general, the harder it is for me or the more often I get beat by someone the more I want to play them. My ultimate measure is myself and what I can do and what I can't do. There is a point where you discern it is impossible to win and at that point I walk away. I don't do no win scenarios. There has to be a ghost of a chance to be worth my time. The army you are describing is no where near a no win scenario.

    Your opponent isn't responsible for you fun. I'm sick to death of that attitude. It is childish and unprofessional. Your opponent is responsible for being polite, not cheating, and being a fun guy/gal to hang out with. They should be the kind of person with whom it is fun to play against win or lose. That is their responsibility. Let's tell the truth and shame the devil. What you really want is for your opponent to gut his list so you can win. How do you even look at yourself in the mirror? I would be nauseous. It would be like admitting to one's self that I just can't hack it. It would be like learning Chess from your parent and realizing that they have been letting you win but WANTING them to continue doing that. I am embarrassed for people when I hear them talking like that.

    It all comes down to why you play. If you want guaranteed fairness in OUTCOMES rather than opportunity, buy yourself a copy of Candyland. Everyone can get a fake feeling of accomplishment when they "win" the game. The number of wins and losses you get will be about equal over time. If you play the game for the story and immersion, it shouldn't matter if your story has a happy or unhappy ending. If you play the game for the challenge, you should be overjoyed by a hard puzzle to solve. I know I'm being a "nutter" right now and I standing on my little box in the park, but this stuff needs to be said. The tools exist to beat the crud out of the one trick pony list you describe. I know because I play against that damn list. The fact that you don't want to avail yourself of the tools is YOUR failing, not your opponent's. I find it sickening to hear you cast your opponent as the poor sportsman when you aren't even bringing your A-Game.
    Last edited by Caitsidhe; 07-24-2014 at 05:08 PM.

  3. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caitsidhe View Post
    My previous comments being said, I don't think the guy is violating any gentleman's agreement. He is playing the game and using the tools Tau get. That's it.
    This pretty much is my feelings on the matter as well.

    Several viable strategies and means to deal with this list have been suggested. Every one gets shot down for some reason or another. 58 x S7 shots isn't even that bad. I'd rather face that from Tau then what I routinely face from Eldar.


    What I normally face off against:
    2 units of 3 warwalkers with dual scatter lasers
    2 Wave Serpents with scatter lasers
    1 Falcon
    5 Fire Dragons + Exarch
    2 Squads of 9 Dire Avengers + Exarch
    9 Swooping Hawks + Exarch
    Crimson Hunter Exarch
    Farseer
    Autarch on jetbike with MotLG + Firesaber


    The Volume of Fire from this army:

    56 x S6 Shots @ 36"
    2D6+2 S7 Shots @ 60"
    7 x S8 Shots 36"+
    30 x S3 Shots 24"
    40 x S4 Bladestorm Shots @ 18"
    6 x S8 Melta Shots @ 12"

    All of this is at BS4 or higher. Doesn't crumple in close combat and is superior when dealing with MEQ. Throw in the ability to cast Invisibility on a unit and the high mobility.

    And this isn't even close to a "cheesy" Eldar Army but a rather run of the mill one.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caitsidhe View Post
    Drop & Pop. That is how you do it.
    As you mentioned Chaos and others can do this but man full drop pod armies rock at the moment... and loosing 15-20 marines at landing (if you actually loose that many) is a small price to pay for being into the tau lines. You can always land a couple deathwinds for giggles too... fun for the whole family!

    Quote Originally Posted by marful View Post
    Several viable strategies and means to deal with this list have been suggested. Every one gets shot down for some reason or another. 58 x S7 shots isn't even that bad. I'd rather face that from Tau then what I routinely face from Eldar. ... And this isn't even close to a "cheesy" Eldar Army but a rather run of the mill one.
    Not far off from the off the cuff list I posted earlier and you're correct, it can get a lot cheesier. Eldar pump out S6-S8 like crazy!

  5. #55

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    @Caitside
    after your first paragraph I stopped reading as none of it is relevant to the discussion.

    Where are you getting chaos drop pods in a bound list? Taking the POS dreadclaws that arrive like flyers T2, then can "land" so you can disembark T3? great idea! let me pay 60ppm for some of those... with the new jink it actually may be a viable tactic and I happen to own a few but by not being effective until Turn 3 I just really struggle with the idea. I'm not saying I'm not open to trying it but frankly those dreadclaws have been on the shelf since I assembled them several years ago.

    Re: The number of casualties I list is statistical average without the use of markerlights from the T4 models alone, so there really is no hyperbole in my post. The crisis suits count for an average of 5, the broadsides average another 10 between their TL MP & TL SMS. That's 15 marines and we haven't even considered the fusion suits, riptides, or commander. I can do the math for you here if you're incapable of multiplying fractions.

    So to drop pods (the only idea I've "shot down") - you drop (4) pods turn one and with that bring 40 marines. Lose 15 - more than 25% of what you've brought. Lets assume all your surviving marines are somehow in rapidfire of crisis suits, and lets also assume you're only packing plasma for special weapons AND you didn't lose any of your special weapons. Lets also assume the tau player isn't full retard & as such has at least a 5+ coversave before going to ground. You've got 25 marines left, and (4) plasma guns. Rapid fire from 21 bolters - averages 4-2/3 wounds on crisis suits - the (8) plasma shots averages (3) wounds. So YAY! you managed to kill (3) crisis suits! That's one unit! Next turn, the surviving battlesuits move away from you as fast as they can since they can't shoot anyways & prepare themselves to fire interceptor at the next marines to drop down who are now coming in piece-meal. The Tau are still first strike engaging you on their own terms.

    That doesn't sound like a great strategy to me based simply on averages. Your math may vary however, or maybe I'm missing something. How about instead of simply telling me I'm wrong you attempt to illustrate HOW I'm wrong.


    Re: "fun" "whose doing it wrong" "whatever" - I said I don't enjoy playing against the list. I also have commented that I'm not interested in trashing the player or the style and more interested in discussing list concepts and specific tactics to beat the list. I never said the guy was doing anything more than bringing a list that is more competitive than where our community plays. If that idea offends you, well I'm not sorry. Grow up. The first several posts back & forth had some good discussion & a good exchange of ideas. Coffeegrunt & others brought some good ideas that I acknowledged & said I'd try out. I felt there was some good back & forth. We chatted about options for a variety of the armies I mentioned were struggling. You however, have contributed "drop pods and if you don't like it you're wrong - and you're wrong anyways because you don't have fun the way I do." Grow up.

    @Marful,

    I think that list has a good chance due to the large volume of firepower it can bring at range - it's far more mobile than the Tau force isn't outranged, the warwalkers can sit outside of 36", walk into range, unload their firepower and then battle-focus a minimum of 1" away to put themselves back out of range of the Tau firepower. Coupled with the farseer throwing out guide & fortune on the warwalker units you've got some great survivability. The autarc is risky however. He's a good counterstrike unit against the deepstriking suits but if played aggressively he's simply going to get markerlighted & a single unit's shooting will destroy him, best not to let him be your warlord in this match up I think...

    Overall however, I don't find that list as intimidating. The anti AV14 needs to get close to be effective - except for the crimson hunter, he definitely has alpha strike potential, but after that is an AV10 flyer so even snapshot bolters are a potential threat. I think the other big reason is that S6 is just not as scary to vehicles as S7 (though just as scary to T4 models once they're disembarked!)
    Last edited by clever handle; 07-24-2014 at 10:29 PM.

  6. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by clever handle View Post
    @Caitside
    after your first paragraph I stopped reading as none of it is relevant to the discussion.
    It is very relevant and we both know you read it to the end. To quote The Princess Bride, "we are men of action; lies do not become us."

    Where are you getting chaos drop pods in a bound list?
    Who needs Drop Pods with CSM? I do it with Obliterators and Termicide Units. Obliterators are the best buy because they can manifest the correct weapon for the job whether you are liquidating Fire Warriors in cover or nuking Armour, or vaporizing suits. Termicide units are still useful, although not as necessary with 7th Edition list building options. It is easy to get more and more Obliterators and be Battle Forged with Combined Arms detachments.

    Taking the POS dreadclaws that arrive like flyers T2, then can "land" so you can disembark T3? great idea! let me pay 60ppm for some of those... with the new jink it actually may be a viable tactic and I happen to own a few but by not being effective until Turn 3 I just really struggle with the idea. I'm not saying I'm not open to trying it but frankly those dreadclaws have been on the shelf since I assembled them several years ago.

    Re: The number of casualties I list is statistical average without the use of markerlights from the T4 models alone, so there really is no hyperbole in my post. The crisis suits count for an average of 5, the broadsides average another 10 between their TL MP & TL SMS. That's 15 marines and we haven't even considered the fusion suits, riptides, or commander. I can do the math for you here if you're incapable of multiplying fractions.
    We agree; the Dreadclaw is a POS. Why you would even assume I was talking about one baffles me. Nothing prevents me from also taking an Allied Detachment of Marines (I can say they are recently Fallen) and put them in a standard Drop Pod. I don't think you really understand how wide your current 7th Edition options are. There is no limit on your options except that which you decide to apply.

    So to drop pods (the only idea I've "shot down") - you drop (4) pods turn one and with that bring 40 marines. Lose 15 - more than 25% of what you've brought. Lets assume all your surviving marines are somehow in rapidfire of crisis suits, and lets also assume you're only packing plasma for special weapons AND you didn't lose any of your special weapons. Lets also assume the tau player isn't full retard & as such has at least a 5+ coversave before going to ground. You've got 25 marines left, and (4) plasma guns. Rapid fire from 21 bolters - averages 4-2/3 wounds on crisis suits - the (8) plasma shots averages (3) wounds. So YAY! you managed to kill (3) crisis suits! That's one unit! Next turn, the surviving battlesuits move away from you as fast as they can since they can't shoot anyways & prepare themselves to fire interceptor at the next marines to drop down who are now coming in piece-meal. The Tau are still first strike engaging you on their own terms.
    In 6th and now 7th Edition the gun is king. You better well adapt and wrap your mind around that fact. The Tau and Eldar are really good with them. However, since I regularly play lists like the one you are talking about, you can't pull my leg. Playing on Tau terms is letting them shoot the crud out of you while you try to close or foolishly trying to wing a long range gun battle with them (unless you are also Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar, or Imperial Guard). Dropping on them and popping them, concentrating your fire on key targets to ensure important kills (in this case the Crisis Suits) will give you the results that you want. I know because that is what I'm forced to do. The fact that you don't want to accept it isn't really my problem and it is certainly not your opponent's problem.

    That doesn't sound like a great strategy to me based simply on averages. Your math may vary however, or maybe I'm missing something. How about instead of simply telling me I'm wrong you attempt to illustrate HOW I'm wrong.
    First we count up how many units he has with Interceptor (and remember that if he uses it those weapons will not be firing again on his turn). Then we look at the Ballistic Skill, Cover, and how many of those weapons ignore it. Then you look at just how many of your units are coming in at the same time preventing him from being able to engage them all. The Tau player will not be able to kill everyone or even badly hurt everyone. The option will be to concentrate on one unit or spread it around. Doing so will, more often than not, mean less accurate shooting than what they would have gotten with the Marker Lights on their own turn. Doesn't that sound better? Wouldn't you rather get shot up by that junk when they don't get to use Marker Lights, and then have them unable to fire on their following turn? You don't see how that is better for you?

    You created this thread under the "guise" of wanting to get suggestions on how to handle it. It is clear that wasn't really your intention. You want to argue about how broken this list is and how unfair it is in fact. You should have been honest about it. We can smell this sort of thing you know. The moment someone starts discarding every suggesting they get it becomes clear you had your mind made up from the start and your real purpose was different than you said. That isn't cool.


    Re: "fun" "whose doing it wrong" "whatever" - I said I don't enjoy playing against the list.
    Then don't. That is your solution. I'm sure he wont' miss you. If you are right, perhaps he won't get any games. I doubt that though. If that were a viable option you and your buddies whom you claim are all frustrated and angry would have already done it. If you don't want to play it because you refuse to make the changes you need to play it effectively, just don't... but be honest enough with yourself to admit it is you that is "crying off" as the Gunslinger would say.

    I also have commented that I'm not interested in trashing the player or the style and more interested in discussing list concepts and specific tactics to beat the list. I never said the guy was doing anything more than bringing a list that is more competitive than where our community plays.
    I've already addressed this but no, that isn't the case. You have been getting suggestions. You just don't like them and clearly never really had an interest in getting them. I think you expected all of us to be more sympathetic. I'm sure some of us are, but a lot of us (who play against the same kinds of armies) are not. We know there is no issue. As to saying you aren't interested in trashing the player, that is also false. You are trashing him in very polite words. You keep saying he si violating the "gentleman's contract" as YOU define it. That means you are saying he is no gentleman. He is the beast. He is "that" guy. Saying it nicely doesn't change the meaning of your inference and all of us damn well know it.

    If that idea offends you, well I'm not sorry. Grow up. The first several posts back & forth had some good discussion & a good exchange of ideas. Coffeegrunt & others brought some good ideas that I acknowledged & said I'd try out. I felt there was some good back & forth. We chatted about options for a variety of the armies I mentioned were struggling. You however, have contributed "drop pods and if you don't like it you're wrong - and you're wrong anyways because you don't have fun the way I do." Grow up.
    I mentioned Drop Pods (and still think they are the best option via allies if you don't have them innate) but my key words were DROP & POP. How you manage this is your own affair but their are lots of tools out there. It is the biggest weakness Tau armies have. I prefer not to grow up. Peter Pan has always been my idol.

  7. #57

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    read it to the end after my post. One of the edits was going to address your comment about "unprofessional conduct" in a hobby but I thought the better of it.

    Dropping in oblits & terminators is absolutely going to be more effective than dropping in dudes with a 3+ save. Problem is that you weren't very descriptive as to what you meant, you've elaborated now & its much more clear =)
    Reasonably though, if you drop in with a 2+ save you're going to take half as many wounds from interceptor fire - which still means you're going to take seven or 8 unsaved wounds based on unmarkerlighted averages assuming they go full interceptor. That's enough to gank a 3-man obliterator squad completely, or two termicide squads, of course they don't HAVE to completely remove those squads to drastically reduce their firepower - and don't forget that next turn you're very vulnerable to a charged ion accelerator shot.

    Of course, since we're talking chaos now you've got some other items on the board which means you're going to discourage the TAU player from going full interceptor, or the guys on the board will be able to close the ground - but if you've played safe turn one you're probably still out of range for a follow up charge.


    Regarding our community - you know nothing about it, so don't presume to. Maybe you're right, maybe you're not. Maybe I'm here trying to find some tips we haven't tried to encourage the rest of our players to keep trying & show them that it isn't all hopeless. You simply don't know. Regarding the idea of the gentleman's agreement - I didn't bring it up in this thread, someone else did & I rejected the idea out of hand when it was raised. I never said anybody is doing anything "wrong" but rather we aren't having fun. It is an elective hobby & for us to elect to participate we need to get some form of reward - you said yourself that if you feel a situation is no win you'll walk away. Maybe that's the point of this thread? Maybe I'm trying to prevent just that in my own little microcosm of the world.

    So far I have stated that two of the suggested lists weren't effective - I illustrated why DROP PODS were not effective in my last reply. The other list suggestion was green tide - we can pretty much discard that out of hand because green tide isn't an effective list & hasn't been for as long as I've been playing 40K. I castle deploy in a corner so that more than 2/3 of your army needs 3+ turns to be able to reach me. I shoot the closest boy mob until its a mangeable size, then target the next one. This list has no issue neutering a 30-boy squad per turn - easily killing off 20+ orks so that the remaining 10 can be dealt with using overwatch / bounced in combat (yes a riptide will bounce 10 boys if you've already killed the nob!). Beyond these two lists I really don't get why you feel I've been overly dismissive, I specifically stated I'd try changing up my list to include lascannons - either on havocs, or on dreadnoughts; discussed modifying my dark eldar to include a bunch of upgrades I had previously considered to be wastes of points, and commented that the proposed eldar armies look to be quite effective at dealing with this farsight enclave. To me, that doesn't seem dismissive - you know, accepting three of the proposed solutions as potentially viable and only explicitly rejecting two of them out of hand, and then only because you can demonstrate mathematically that they are flawed.

  8. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by clever handle View Post
    Overall however, I don't find that list as intimidating. The anti AV14 needs to get close to be effective - except for the crimson hunter, he definitely has alpha strike potential, but after that is an AV10 flyer so even snapshot bolters are a potential threat. I think the other big reason is that S6 is just not as scary to vehicles as S7 (though just as scary to T4 models once they're disembarked!)
    Why even mention AV 14? S7 can't touch AV 14 anyways. And everything that is AV13 has 12 or less on the sides making S6 just fine. S7 s only scary to you.


    Lets do the mathhammertimelolzguitarriff...

    vs MEQ
    S7 BS3 Shots have a 27.778% chance of killing a marine.
    S6 BS4 Shots have a 37.037% chance of killing a marine.

    vs Vehicles
    S7 BS3 vs AV10.....33.334% for Hullpoint, 25% for Pen.
    S7 BS3 vs AV11.....25.000% for Hullpoint, 16.667% for Pen.
    S7 BS3 vs AV12.....16.667% for Hullpoint, 08.334% for Pen.

    S6 BS4 vs AV10.....33.334% for Hullpoint, 22.223% for Pen.
    S6 BS4 vs AV11.....22.223% for Hullpoint, 11.113% for Pen.
    S6 BS4 vs AV12.....11.112% for Hullpoint, 0.0% for Pen.



    The actual number of models that can possibly be on the board where the distinction between S6 and S7 is important is going to be very limited simply because there are only 4-5 non Lord of War vehicles in the game with an AV of 14. And everything except the Land Raider and Monolith have much lower armor on side/rear.

    Elder are the masters at this, particularly when they have access to Haywire and Distort as well as Lance weapons.


    The fact is, the Tau list you described is not nasty at all. It is a completely normal Tau list. And the fact that when I pointed out what Eldar could do, you immediately dismissed this because "AV14", despite what you are complaining about not being able to effectively overcome AV14 either leads me to believe there is another reason for your question.

    So your point is irrelevant, and Caitsidhe is affirmed in that your only intent seems to be to dismiss, arbitrarily, any legitimate attempt to address your initial question.

    So, in the interest of science and/or lulz (inclusively or exclusively) , I ask: What answer are you really looking for?

    Clearly you aren't looking for ways to beat a normal Tau 7th ed force.
    Last edited by marful; 07-24-2014 at 11:30 PM.

  9. #59

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    Hey, go back to the start of the thread. I specifically mentioned that in addition to the S7 firepower the TAU list has the ability to bring enough fusion to bear to threaten AV14 so as to ensure it isn't a viable solution. THAT is why I mention AV14 in response to your ELDAR list. Please read my post again as I was not dismissive of your eldar list but simply stated that it is less intimidating than the specific list I am discussing.

    You're post is also disregarding bringing guard battle-tanks with AV14 & AV13 on the "at risk" facings. Those will stand up to eldar S6 & S7 firepower until you're able to shoot through their bubble-wrap & get your firedragons in close. But I'm not here to discuss whether your eldar list is "scarier" than my Tau list - I thanked you for your contribution and stated that I feel your proposed list is a good, balanced, counter list to the Tau list I'm here to discuss.

    If you want to be cheeky I can too. I could point out that you're missing twin linking on those S7 shots - as fully 50% of them are twin linked; I could also point out that you're neglecting the impact of markerlights - of course you'd simpy counter that you didn't take into account the blessings from your farseer. See? This game is silly. Lets not do it.

    Maybe we can agree that this thread has run its course - I've taken what I need to from it. Namely:
    a) sit just outside TAU effective firepower range & trade shot for shot, this definitely can work but to be effective requires looking to "upgrade" those weapons to lascannons, weapons which have in the last two editions been considered bad investments OR for dark eldar, taking a niche upgrade that is pretty much only effective against this one list and adds significant cost to otherwise already very expensive paper airplanes.
    b) deepstrike tough targets & hope you survive the interceptor fire - frankly I think the success of this is dubious, but if you're able to push threats who are already on the board it may be effective, for Chaos this may mean hiding a maulerfiend behind LOS blocking terrain in the center of the table while you deepstrike obliterators & terminators, for marines this means committing to a drop pod force... however I feel I've adequately illustrated why that tactic for marines has the potential to fail horribly; and finally
    c) an offshoot of (a) that only works for eldar - sit literally on the edge of range & use battle focus with units of warwalkers to step in & out of range.

  10. #60

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    Over Half of the S6 spam from elder is twin-linked @ BS4.

    Then there is the unit of Swooping hawks, each with haywire grenades.
    The 5 shots of BS4 melta from the Fire Dragons +2 Shots of BS5 from the exarch.
    Then there are the bright lances...


    The distinctions you are drawing are arbitrary. If Tau are going Missile Pod Spam like you described then they are sacrificing their melta output for this capability.


    Again I reitterate: your only intent seems to be to dismiss, arbitrarily, any legitimate attempt to address your initial question.

    The difficulties you are describing are completely common to the 6th-7th edition meta.

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