Dealing with 58+ S7 shots at 36" range [1850]

[clever handle]

So lets just pose this hypothetical: Lets say there's an army out there that can comfortably put out nearly 60 S7 shots per turn at ranges up to 36". Now lets assume that a significant amount of these shots are twin linked, lets also assume that the base unit is fairly mobile and comes with a decent, but not amazing level of survivability - the survivability comes from the first strike potential...

Now lets also assume that at the 1850 points level, this army is capable of bringing enough melta, that can get exactly where it needs to be with almost pinpoint accuracy so as to ensure that simply taking AV14 to render the S7 useless isn't the easy-win button we're all looking for.

How does one go about contending with this army?
- the S7 is more than enough to remove 3-4 vehicles AV12 or less from the table per turn
- say goodbye to around 12-15 MEQ per turn (double that for anything without a 3+ save...)
- cover, unless its total LOS obscuring, is meaningless.

...if you haven't guessed, I'm talking about a farsight enclaves army loaded for bear with MP & HYMP (and haven't even discussed the double-riptides the list can bring). Drop Pods / Deep Striking don't work due to an abundance of EWO. Flyers don't work as even without skyfire there's too much flak in the air - unless you go whole hog & bring an air-force (then good luck surviving turn 1!).... Oh yeah & this is a bound list.

There's a fellow at our FLGS who brings such an army, and despite being a super-nice guy, nobody enjoys playing against because no matter what we try we simply can't compete. This list is shutting down balanced space marines, fast & aggressive (T2 assault-based) chaos lists as well as durable (nurgle) lists, eldar, orks, dark eldar & nids. Pretty much you name it & its getting stuffed by an abundance of S7 shooting...

[CoffeeGrunt]

I don't see how you got Twin-Linked and Highly Mobile from the same Tau unit there. You can only T-L one unit and under Farsight, none at all as you can't get the C&CN. Broadsides are a very immobile unit.

A bit more detail on the list would help us think of counters. Presumably there's a Broadside Firebase, which cry like babymen when Lascannons re pointed at them unless they're bloated with Drones.

[clever handle]

(3) units of (3) Crisis suits w/ double MP gives you (12) mobile S7 shots
(2) units of (3) broadside suits gives you the same volume of, less mobile but TL, S7 shots
season to taste w/ Tetras for precision deepstriking of the (3) solo suits each equipped w/ Fusion - these guys DS in danger-close, fusion any high AV targets, then dash away to claim objectives in Maelstrom, or simply be a nuisance otherwise.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Shoot the Tetras seems to be your first concern. I'm assuming you're running Marines? If they're getting close enough to Precision drop suits in Melta range, they're close enough to kill as they can't move before DS, you have a turn to react.

Lascannons are capable of outranging most of his force, and if you get the drop on him for turn one, nailing the Tetras early on would be a boon. Do the Broadsides bring Drones? If not, even in Cover a Lascannon leaves them with a 50/50 chance of dropping dead, so you might scare him into Going to Ground. Forcing him to Snap Fire as much as possible and crippling his Markerlights will increase your chances of success massively as, despite the high volume, not much will get through to make a mark, (Even 3 Broadsides will only average about 3-4 hits with their HYMPs.)

[This Dave]

How to counter it depends on what armies you have available. Off the top of my head against something like that you might try:

Heavy armor. Land Raiders of various types would ignore completely the S7 shots. Maybe use some to provide moving cover so the Marines can get close.

Heavy armor part 2. Several Guard Demolishers/Executioners have the front armor to ignore the shots and the firepower to wreck battle suit face. Throw in a blob or two of meat shields, ear brave troops to screen the tanks from deep striking suits.

Heavy armor part 3. Knights might do okay. They can ignore most of the shots and they have enough HPs to get close enough to start doing a rain dance on some Broadsides.

Heavy armor part 4. Baneblade company?

Psychic dickery. Have a couple Psykers to cast Invisibility on some units to keep them safer until they can get close enough.

Drown them in the Green Tide. Throw two 100+ model Boys mobs at them. May not win but it'll be worth the laugh.

[clever handle]

@CoffeeGrunt
Frankly, this army does not rely upon its marker-light support for much except removing cover saves from things without the 3+, and from vehicles. (3) Broadsides w/ TL:HYMP will actually average 8 hits wont they (3*4)*(3/4)...

Occasionally the broadsides bring drones, if the fellow is bringing double-riptide then he doesn't have the points - and frankly I'd prefer to face the double riptide as without the drones every shot on target hurts the broadsides.

Regarding the Tetras - don't they give the ability to reroll the D6 for scatter distance if they can draw line of sight to the DS target? Unless you can bring them ALL down turn 1 it seems like a waste to target them over any of the suits.

Personally I run a "balanced" dark eldar straight out of 3rd edition, but with a couple units of blasterborne - I just always seem to suffer from rubber-lance syndrome (I've heard there's a pill that fixes it available somewhere...) but when they do manage to work it seems I'm best suited for the job - I can sit @ 36" w/ nightshields and plink away at the suits - prioritizing the more mobile crisis suits over the static broadsides. Key phrase "when they do manage to work"

and the aggressive chaos I mentioned above - the chaos list lacks long range shooting, except for (1) unit of oblits & instead uses maulerfiends, bikes & spawn to push aggressively, hoping to get into combat T2... the only problem is by T2 I've generally lost all the models mentioned above as they charge headlong into an almost literal wall of missles.

@Dave
as mentioned, relying upon AV14 just isn't going to work - Turn one you're safe (unless the tank hunting HQ or two riptides gank you) but T2 you've got (3) solo-suits deepstriking aggressively c/w (probably) fusion+TL:fusion. Generally even one of these guys is going to put a big hurt on your land-raiders and/or IG heavy tanks.

Green tide absolutely does not work as this is a list that can EASILY remove 30 orks from the table each turn once you've stepped into that 36" bubble - it gets worse once you're within 30" & the TL:SMS start flying as well.. Slaaneshi daemons may have a decent chance, but they're almost twice as expensive as boys, and only 30% more survivable - the army is still easily capable of removing 20+ T3 5++ models per turn due to volume of fire.

@All
it seems like for marines, lascannon devastators / havocs may be the answer (super-expensive FNP, slaaneshi havocs?), sitting at max range & firing away. With the anticipated rise in high-AV targets (necrons, land raiders, guard) this may not be a bad unit... we may be back towards this loadout over autocannon devs... its just such an ugly-expensive & static unit that I personally struggle with the idea.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Regarding the Tetras - don't they give the ability to reroll the D6 for scatter distance if they can draw line of sight to the DS target? Unless you can bring them ALL down turn 1 it seems like a waste to target them over any of the suits.

No, they're equipped with a standard Homing Beacon, (No Deep Strike scatter within 6".) They have to get close.

(3) Broadsides w/ TL:HYMP will actually average 8 hits wont they (3*4)*(3/4)...

They will if you're not forcing them to Snap Fire, yes. As far as Lascannons, I think 7th was the death of the Missile Launcher. It has too little Anti-Armour ability now, so you want that small chance of Explodes on hard targets from the Ap2, and +1S helps you get it. Not to mention it making Broadsides and Riptides, etc much easier to put down.

[clever handle]

@coffeegrunt
F@c& FW and having rules all over the place. I believe we've been playing those guys incorrectly...

I personally never ran ML havocs - it was autocannons or geared for up-close with multiple meltaguns. In the new era of "its all scoring" 240+ points for (4) lascannons may be worth it but it just seems WAY too expensive for a single unit - especially since as the only long range AT, that will be target priority #1.

[This Dave]

If this guy's army is as crazy mobile as you say Devastator squads won't be too useful for too long. And they can't put out enough firepower to kill a lot of suits since they will have Shield Drones or cover.

If all he has is 3 dope striking suits that's what the bubble wrap of guardsmen is for. Even just buy Conscripts, they're cheaper so you can make a bigger wrap. And one suit is more points than a whole herd of them. Have them stand around the tanks while the tanks blow the crap out of the suits. Take an Officer of the Fleet to mess with his reserve rolls so you have more time to pound him before they come in. Or take some stuff with Interceptor yourself to blow the things back to hell when they land.

Give him more targets to deal with. Maybe have some Vendettas or Storm Ravens come in and blast suits. Sure if his entire army shoots at them he'll probably knock it down but it should get a turn of shooting in and in the turn it gets killed the rest of your army can be pounding them.

These aren't foolproof tactics by any means but they're better than just standing and getting shot in the face.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Tetra: Equipped with a Heavy 2, T-L Markerlight, T-L Pulse Rifle, Fast Skimmer, AV10 all sides, 2HP. Also has a Homing Beacon. (I'll say the points cost is 2.5 Tac Marines these days as I know some forums dislike points cost posting.) Even in its previous iteration, it never did that style of Deep Strike aiding.

Oblierators are also Godly, because you've got the gun you need at all times, Lascannons for the Suits, Assault Cannons for the Tetras, etc, etc.