Knights assaulting through Tank Traps

[Wolfshade]

Ok, so relevant rules: (sorry I don't have the page numbers I am currently having to use my digital edition

Moving Walkers

Walkers use the movement rules for infantry.

Tank Traps

Tank traps are impassable terrain to non-Skimmer vehicles, dangerous terrain to bikes, and open ground for other units.

Walkers

Walkers are an unusal type of vehicle

Unit Types

So far, we've discussed the rules as they pertain to infantry

Ok lots of rules, how do they interact.

First up, lets take the rules for Tank Traps

So, they are treated as impassible terrain to all non-skimmer vehicles. A walker is a "Vehicle, Walker", and therefore is a vehicle so must treat the tank trap as impassible terrain.

Ah ha! But, they move as infantry, note that they move as infantry does. Not that they "count-as" infantry, so we look at the rules for infantry movement and they are the basic rules. There is nothing in the basic rules or the infantry rules that enable infantry to move through impassable terrain. It talks how they are affected by dangerous terrain and that they may not pass through impassible terrain.


This enables to take into account the rules for infantry movement and the rules for the tank traps without causing conflict. The walker moves as infantry but is still prevented from moving places by impassible terrain.

Note: when in 40k the term "count-as" is used frequently and this means that that unit or model takes on all the characteristic of another entirely. So, if you take a space marine captain on bike, then you can count bikes as troops, rather than being fast. But this is not what we have here, we have the phrase "walkers use the movement rules for infantry", but it does not count-as infantry. There are several instances in the rule book where it uses "using the rules" these are all telling the player how to do things and rather than re-iterate the rules it just tells you that it does it following the given rules.

[Mr Mystery]

Which is precisely what I've been saying. Using the Infantry rules for movement does not Infantry make. Not even 'counts as'.

If a rule wants something to 'count as', then it will say just that.

[Tynskel]

The issue is, this is NOT the rule. Walkers move like infantry in SPECIFIC cases mentioned in the rule text. There is nothing mentioning "losing vehicle trait", gaining "immunities" or stops effects that target vehicles from affecting the vehicle, walker.

I have cited multiple examples of 'counts as'. You replace the rule. Tank Trap Impassible for vehicles. Impassable is for movement. So Vehicle Movement is stopped. Walkers are not vehicles when it comes to movement, they are Infantry. 'counts as'.

I have yet to see you cite where in the rulebook that Vehicle rules are for Infantry. Or how Infantry move as vehicles.
Neither case exists, because you replace the rules.

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Which is precisely what I've been saying. Using the Infantry rules for movement does not Infantry make. Not even 'counts as'.

If a rule wants something to 'count as', then it will say just that.

but it did. It says "use Infantry".

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Ok, so relevant rules: (sorry I don't have the page numbers I am currently having to use my digital edition



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Ok lots of rules, how do they interact.

First up, lets take the rules for Tank Traps

So, they are treated as impassible terrain to all non-skimmer vehicles. A walker is a "Vehicle, Walker", and therefore is a vehicle so must treat the tank trap as impassible terrain.

Ah ha! But, they move as infantry, note that they move as infantry does. Not that they "count-as" infantry, so we look at the rules for infantry movement and they are the basic rules. There is nothing in the basic rules or the infantry rules that enable infantry to move through impassable terrain. It talks how they are affected by dangerous terrain and that they may not pass through impassible terrain.


This enables to take into account the rules for infantry movement and the rules for the tank traps without causing conflict. The walker moves as infantry but is still prevented from moving places by impassible terrain.

The Walker replaces its rules. When is Vehicle called inconjunction with Impassable? Movement. Walkers are not Vehicles when Moving. Hence 'counts as'.

Seriously. Somebody cite me a rule that shows that vehicles movement is in the Infantry section!

[daboarder]

wolf just lock the damned thread, he's going to hold his line regardless of what anyone shows him

[Wolfshade]

But it is not count-as, if they wanted it to be count-as, they would have said "count-as".

They say using the rules, because they move in the same style, and even if they do, there is nothing in infantry movement that allows it ignore impassable terrain.

[The Tisroc]

wolf just lock the damned thread, he's going to hold his line regardless of what anyone shows him

So... someone disagrees with you so the thread needs to be locked?!

[Mr Mystery]

Final example, for the hard of understanding. Ready?

Flying Monstrous Creature, Gliding.

When gliding, they use the rules for......Jump Infantry. So option of 6" move, 3D6 and Hammer of Wrath on the charge, or 12" move and regular charge.

Which would also mean once Gliding, because according to your logic, they 'count as' Jump Infantry, they cannot switch back to Swooping. Ever. Because the 'count as' Jump Infantry.

[Tynskel]

But it is not count-as, if they wanted it to be count-as, they would have said "count-as".

They say using the rules, because they move in the same style, and even if they do, there is nothing in infantry movement that allows it ignore impassable terrain.

Ugh. look at the Tyranid Tyrant Guard entry, as it uses 'as if'—'counts as' is a catch all term—and the FAQ rules in favor of 'counts as'. In every instance this has occured the FAQs have ruled that the model 'uses the rules for X'—which is they *exact* language of the Walker Entry. I've already been through this, wolfshade. I showed multiple examples where the phrasing is different, but the meaning is exactly the same.

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Final example, for the hard of understanding. Ready?

Flying Monstrous Creature, Gliding.

When gliding, they use the rules for......Jump Infantry. So option of 6" move, 3D6 and Hammer of Wrath on the charge, or 12" move and regular charge.

Which would also mean once Gliding, because according to your logic, they 'count as' Jump Infantry, they cannot switch back to Swooping. Ever. Because the 'count as' Jump Infantry.

That's a flawed logic. Why? Because you are ignoring the rest of the rules. Read the entry for FMC—it explicitly states that you can switch, at the beginning of the Movement Phase.

Just as how, the movement phases ends, and the Walker is back to Vehicle rules.

[Wolfshade]

But we are not talking about "as-if" it says "use the rules". Again, if they had meant "as-if" they would have used "as-if", the tell you where to look to save them re-defining the same rule twice.

Like when placing objectives you "use the rules" for objective placing this just prevents us from having to re-writting out the rules.

[Tynskel]

But we are not talking about "as-if" it says "use the rules". Again, if they had meant "as-if" they would have used "as-if", the tell you where to look to save them re-defining the same rule twice.

Like when placing objectives you "use the rules" for objective placing this just prevents us from having to re-writting out the rules.

no, look at the Tyrant Guard Entry— as if it were an IC. That means go to the IC section and apply the IC rules—for this action. You replace the rules. (check out the FAQ for 5th Edition)

And that is my point: GW is saying—it is *that thing*. Not *anything* else.