Forgefiends & Maulerfiends Revisited: They Still Suck

[Caitsidhe]

So I had an offer of a trade recently which included several Forgefiends and a Maulerfiend at fire sale prices. I didn't jump right on it because I recalled that I looked at them when our CSM book first came out, proxied them, and found them severely wanting. Even so, I figured this is 7th Edition right? Aren't vehicles supposed to be tougher now? That is what people keep telling me (although I certainly don't have any trouble killing them). Given the crazy value of the trade I figured I'd take a look again and see if now, years later, if I found I had misjudged them. I don't run into them very often (well almost NEVER) so I can't be the only person who found them wanting. Even so, I went and gave them another close examination.

Forgefiend:
Ostensibly our "volume of fire" walker, the Forgefiend compares badly against the like units of other armies and even worse against the similar options within the CSM book itself. Consider if you will, that a Carnifex decked out for shooting costs 5pts less than a Forge Fiend, fires (4) more shots, is twin-linked, can't be blown up, shaken, stunned, etc. and has the added perk of being absolutely deadly in close combat. Let's not forget the wonderful high strength Hammer of Wrath. There is also the added perk that you can stack those Carnifex up in units. I won't go on and on grabbing the volume of fire units from every codex but the pattern repeats. The Forge Fiend is overpriced and underperforms. The nail in the coffin is, of course, the fact that for barely a pittance more you can get three Obliterators that can do everything the Forge Fiend can and are much more durable. It is like they were drunk when they created the stats for this thing. One also has to wonder about it only having (3) Hull Points. It is huge and looks well designed. Apparently not.


Maulerfiend:
It has this much going for it; it is better than the Forgefiend. That being said, that isn't a lot. It is fast. If it hits it gets 1-2 extra nasty attacks which are really good for killing vehicles and buildings. That is about it. The problem is that for a dedicated combat walker, it isn't particularly good at its job. It is only WS-3, so for all the cool description in the book, the thing is actually no better at close combat than a damn Guardsman. It only comes with (2) basic attacks, so even given one for for the charge you will have to assume it is going to need 4s (or 5s) to hit. Since its Magma Cutters key on hits, that is something of a drawback. It does have the fact that it is relatively cheap compared to its worthless Forgefiend brother. Not too much more than a Helbrute, I suppose it is possible to spam them if you don't care about the fact that they compete with much better Heavy slots. Still, in 7th Edition, it really isn't difficult to get all the slots you want. If I had to run a Fiend, it would be a Maulerfiend. The main issue, of course, is that their primary purpose (the only thing they really do well) is kill vehicles and buildings. I suppose one could run (3) of them if you could find a way to get the slots or just went Unbound and three of them is around the cost of a single Knight. Eh. Even that doesn't really pan out. It really would take all three hitting intact to take a Knight down. Given the fact that they are glass cannons, good luck with that.
I wanted to like this guy, but he is only slightly more useful in theory, and in application will likely just get trounced.

[jenkatron]

I have to disagree with the analysis here Caitsidhe, and think both these models got some very nice boosts for 7th edition, as did walkers in general (though I feel these two are both more survivable and points effective than the helbrute and the defiler).
I would happily run either fiend, at basic loadouts with no upgrades to maximise point efficiency (I have run maulerfiends for some time and they are well worth the 125pts).

FORGEFIEND in 6th:
- Fleet AV12 walker, used as a static 8 36" shots S8 AP4, 50% hit at BS3
- Daemonic Possession: Ignores crew shaken/stunned on a 2+
- 5++ invul, IWND
FORGEFIEND in 7th edition is as above PLUS:
- New vehicle damage chart makes them harder to one-shot
- now a mobile shooting platform as walkers can move and fire all weapons at full BS
- Ignores crew shaken/stunned is much more relevant as this is now 4/7 of the vehicle damage chart
- 5++ invul, IWND are now more powerful as the general vehicle survivability multiplies their effects

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You compared the forgefiend to a dakkafex, which, admittedly is an awesome firing platform for Tyranids).
It is not a fair comparison: The dakkafex is MASSIVELY better in CC, but not nearly as useful as a shooting platform.
A dakkafex is not fearless (not usually an issue, but if you take them in the packs you describe you have a 'hidden cost' of someone with synapse - or risk them eating eachother or shooting nothing at all).
You are describing the TL Devourer loadout, which is 18" range, S6. 18" range is just not comparable as a shooting platform.
Yes there are more shots and more will hit (avg 9 hits vs only 4), but this is anti infantry and light armor ONLY. S6 is not gonna touch AV13/14, and is much less reliable against even light armor, walkers or flyers than s8.
S8 shooting also has better reliability at wounding high toughness infantry, bikes, MC's and can double tap T4 for instagibs.

The forgefiend got a lot more survivable in 7th, it can move and shoot and can still keep a sweet 36" range from the best anti tank melta type guns, it has a 5++ to ignore 1/3 of all attacks, is totally impervious to anything less than s6 shooting, and you can stick it behind an Aegis or a low ruins to further increase its survivability.
Sidebar about the CSM codexes lack of AA: I have on a number of occasions fired off a full pack of autocannon havocs at enemy flyers. Thats 8 x snapping S7 AP4 shots, usually good enough to mes up a flyers day. Thats one of my favorite multipurposes for the autocannon havocs.
The forgefiend is BETTER and is probably CSM's best AA tank, with that same 8 snap shots but now at s8, is even more likely gonna get you a penetrating hit, or a wound and grounded check on a FMC (most of which aren't holding 3+ armor saves).
In 6th 10x autocannon havocs were a lot better value than the forgefiend, 10 wounds being much harder to shift than 1 walker.
Your comparison to 3 oblits is interesting, but the forgefiend is a lot less likely to die to small arms/bolter fire, lacks AP1/2 but puts out a lot more high strength shots.
Its still (depending on what your opponent brought!) generally harder to kill 3 oblits and 10 havocs than it is 1 walker, but 7th has definately redressed this balance somewhat, and in my mind the changes have picked this model off the floor added it to the CSM Heavy Support toolbag.
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"HELL DOG" - the exact opposite of the forgefiend shooting platform this is a fast point, and let go of the leash type beasty.

MAULERFIEND in 6th:
- Fleet AV12 anti-tank/building walker, with a FAST 12" move just like a beast, and extra AP1 attacks in CC
- Daemonic Possession: Ignores crew shaken/stunned on a 2+
- 5++ invul, IWND
MAULERFIEND in 7th edition is as above PLUS:
- New vehicle damage chart makes them harder to one-shot
- New vehicle damage chart makes the AP2 fists and AP1 magma cutters your go-to pieces of CSM anti armor
- Ignores crew shaken/stunned is more relevant as this is now 4/7 of the vehicle damage chart
- 5++ invul, IWND are now more powerful as the general vehicle survivability multiplies their effects

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A lot of the above applies in terms of survivability, and the mauler has the added bonus that you can park him in a ruins on deployment to near guarantee a 4+/5++ save, and not even care about running out of it on your turn.
A lot less is needed here as you have acknowledged some of its value, except its speed is the key.
Speed allows you to pick your CC targets, the juiciest tanks and transports, the key buildings, or the infantry/marines/terminator pack with all power swords and axes and oops no melta bombs.
Your argument that hitting in CC on 4' or 5's is NOT the case if you are using this BEAST as intended.
Charge at a fortification or any tank and you are hitting against WS1, with 4 s10 AP2 attacks on 3's.
Roll any 3+'s to hit and you get a free extra s8 AP1 armorbane attack. Roll all 3+'s and you get 2 free extra attacks.
If you are particularly worried about the enemy target (ie a land raider or particularly nasty fortification, activate Daemonforge for rerolls of armor pen).
As with all of the above, it is now harder to pop tanks. Unless you bring AP2 or AP1. Guess what the helldog is loaded out with!
This model for me does what nothing else does in CSM, not many other armies have models that are quite as scary, it literally busts tanks for breakfast.
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[Caitsidhe]

Hrm. We do disagree, intensely. I should give you the info for the guy doing the trade.

[Macharius]

I do not play Chaos, so can not comment. But really solid analysis by both of you!.. All I can add is why I play against, I always find them making back their points, or being a pain in the plastic.

[marful]

My 2.123789245 ¢...

I have a maulerfiend. I try and use it to hunt vehicles, but it just fails.

My problems with it:

1.) It's too big. It can't hide. It just sits there as everything pops it before I get to go.
2.) AV 12 isn't enough for it to survive making contact with an enemy vehicle.
3.) WS 3 and 2 base attacks means that it will take 3+ turns to kill any vehicle.
4.) Because it can't lock vehicles in CC, they'll just move away leaving the Maulerfiend sitting in the enemy's line of fire with it's tender bits dangling just waiting to get charged. If it doesn't die from glances to it's rear at AV10 it will from the subsequent assault.
5.) The #1 killer of my Maulerfiend is by 5 man tactical squads with a sergeant with either a powerfist or meltabombs and multiple Krak Grenade attacks. (4 times now by different peoples tactical squads or equivalents...)
6.) ITWN and a 5+ just aren't enough to keep it up if it dies in 1 round.


If the maulerfiend was the size of a helbrute, and came in squads of 1-3, had +1 WS and +1 attack, then I might start looking at them. They simply do not have the stats for the points to do their role: armor killing.

A multi-melta equipped helbrute is superior at popping vehicles to a mauler fiend (and doesn't take up a heavy slot...).


And that's a really pathetic thing when a Dark Vengeance Helbrute is superior at popping vehicles than a maulerfiend.

[Charon]

I found one way to use Maulerfiends in a regular game. You really need to build your army around them to make them work.
You can make them part of a multiple threat fast moving army (Outflanking Lord + Spawn, 3 Maulerfiends, Bikes, Daemon Prince... maybe even Slaanesh Daemon allies). Its a pretty much forward "in your face list" that can overwhelm quite a few army comps. But aside from this... leave them on the shelf.

[marful]

I found one way to use Maulerfiends in a regular game. You really need to build your army around them to make them work.
You can make them part of a multiple threat fast moving army (Outflanking Lord + Spawn, 3 Maulerfiends, Bikes, Daemon Prince... maybe even Slaanesh Daemon allies). Its a pretty much forward "in your face list" that can overwhelm quite a few army comps. But aside from this... leave them on the shelf.

If your entire army needs to be designed around delivering 3 maulerfiends into CC with a vehicle...

What does that say about the effectiveness of maulerfiends?

[Charon]

If your entire army needs to be designed around delivering 3 maulerfiends into CC with a vehicle...

What does that say about the effectiveness of maulerfiends?

Getting your maulerfiends into cc is a bonus, not a must. Getting them into cc with a vehicle is an even greater bonus.
Creating an army around certain models to make them work is nothing out of the ordinary, doesnt mean these units are trash. Some units require a proper set up to work, some units work regardless of the setup. The Maulerfiend is one of the former units. Its not a very good unit to begin with but far from utterly useless.
But yes... if you decide to go for them, you have to spam them.

[DWest]

Personally, I've gotten good use out of a Maulerfiend, but in a completely different role- counter-assault. Put the lasher tentacles on and put it in the middle of your main thrust, and if the opponent sends anything in close, the 'fiend jumps out and gobbles it up. It's especially good against Space Marine Bikes; here the AV12 is a plus, because Krak Grenades mean the Bikers can't withdraw using "our weapons are useless", but at the same time, 5 throws needing 6s to glance aren't going to actually hurt the 'fiend any time soon. I also find the large size is actually an advantage, as the Maulerfiend can effectively screen or even block LOS for a variety of units. It puts the opponent in a bad spot- either "waste" fire on killing the 'fiend, or shoot around it at the more dangerous stuff, and then you have a fist-swinging monster loose in your back line.

[Sly]

My equations show me that the Forgefiend is better, per point, at killing vehicles of AV 12+ (and probably better vs AV11+) than Obliterators. While not necessarily tougher, it works better in an otherwise armor-heavy list. The Oblits would eat all of the anti-infantry fire while the vehicles eat the anti-tank, but if you replace Oblits with Forgefiends, the enemy has no use for his basic rifles at least until after he's killed some transports. Edit: The Forgefiend is also better offensively against Flyers/FMCs since it doesn't lose as much accuracy. On the other hand, it is weaker against infantry units while the Oblits have better anti-infantry firepower available. Oblits are also better in CC. That's why they're (rightly) considered better overall units. Just not at the specific task of killing medium-heavy armor at long range, which is actually a major problem for Chaos Marines.

As for the Maulerfiend, I always run it with Lasher Tendrils, which makes it a serious threat against MCs and Dreads. Run them in pairs with other fast threats (Spawn with Bikelords), and have both of them attack the same MC to lower it to one attack. They only have 2 attacks base, but have 2 weapons to raise that to 3, 4 on the charge. With 4 attacks at S10/AP2, that usually does destroy vehicles on the charge. They're not dominant, but for 135 pts they are pretty solid at what they do.

What you cannot do, with either, is run 1-2 of them and no other comparable threats. You can't run 1-2 Forgefiends with no other armor, and be surprised when they die fast and do nothing. Run them with several other Walkers, Preds, Rhinos, even Heldrakes, and they become a lot more useful. Similarly, 1-2 Maulerfiends thrown in the enemy's face without support are just melta bait. Give them a screen of Spawn to keep opponents more than 6" from them and to provide another fast threat, maybe a Mace Prince or Be'lakor moving at 12" with them, and you have several threats that are dangerous and offer a likely Turn 2 charge. If your opponents shoots them down, then probably the rest of the advancing units reach CC untouched.

However, everyone says that Wave Serpents are great. Well, take just one in an otherwise Infantry/Bike army, and see how well it does. Or how 3 Oblits do in an army that otherwise is all Mechanized. When a unit is inherently exposed by itself, either through its defensive stats or through its position on the field, it rarely does well. The only exception are those units that are designed specifically to be extremely tough, and that usually pay for it by losing firepower or mobility... Hammernators, GUO, etc. So it's not a real argument against Fiends that they have to be fielded along with several other threats of the same genre... that argument would work well against a lot of other units that are considered good.