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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caitsidhe View Post
    The only point of the shake ups is to stimulate sales, by invalidating what was good and trying to create a rush to buy something new. This is now combined with breaking a Codex into 2-4 books (perhaps more as the year goes on). Their new tactic is to trying and get people to buy multiple armies as well. So yes, whatever was hot will be useless or neutral compared to something else.

    *The truly ironic thing is that if they truly built interesting, BALANCED armies where everything had a niche, sales would stay pretty level and continuous across the product line. Releasing books with units that are entirely pointless all but ensures models are issued which won't sell at the time of issue.
    YOu know I'd agree with you in the age before the internet - the problem is that some d-bag posts a "killer list" and like sheep, people will just take that list and run with it.

    I'm not at all opposed to them granulating the codexes. Chaos players should be really optimistic because there's never been more of a chance of getting legion-specific books with this model. For the first time in a long time I'm considering adding an allied detachment of GK's to my BA army... and that makes me happy because I like the GK Termie models but I never wanted to start a third army.

    [URL="http://www.unrememberedlegion.com/?p=1371"]I referred to the GK as the "+1" army on a new blog that we're starting up.[/URL]
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  2. #32
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    Of course shake ups are to generate sales. But then everything GW is to that same end. The horror!

    But slightly more seriously, how often did you face grey knights and it was just draigo and paladin wings. With a handful of pysflemen?

    If you look through the army lists for grey knights on just this forum you will see loads of examples of almost indentical armies, and you know what, that is kinda boring. So if that changes that, then great!

    We also know, that there are people who do buy models without rules or that are "sub-par" because the model looks cool, or because they want to paint it or they are a collector type.

    What you cannot expect is a codex released in 6th to fully work in 7th, so of course it should be re-released and updated. Ok this wasn't the codex that everyone was expecting. It seems a little conservative and I hope isn't a mark of the future. I wanted new kits, new shiney things, not just re-rulled existing things. I wanted as surprising as the centurions, or the dreadknight, or riptide etc. though not necessarily a "big" kit. Just something new flavoursome and gorgeously sculpted.

    I also disagree about sales being continous across the product line. New things sell better than older things. Otherwise FIFA/Proevo/Madden/F1 n would sell as well as n+1, but they don't. Then there are numbers I doubt anyone would expect to sell the same number of named HQs as Elites.

    The argument of balance is a joke, in a game of this level of complexity you cannot achieve balance and also, what you think of balanced another person may not. How many house rules have we seen that have been brought in to achieve a "balance" and yet others have decried as just as unbalanced.
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  3. #33

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    Actually I dont believe in "legion-specific books".
    As GW stated that they wont compete with rules/models from FW, HH already has these.
    I also think that we will not see new models for units like Noise Marines, as FW already has Kakophoni. You remember when everyone told us that we will get Chaos Knight Dataslates and conversion kits in no time?

  4. #34

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    There are three pressing thoughts on my head now.

    First is the ideology of an army book / Codex: It costs standard $, it has units with unique visuals and rules in it and most importantly in this case, the army chosen can manage on its own against any other army there is, given the player has chosen wisely of course.

    With all the talks (and more or less proof) that the grey knights have been watered down and the major shortcoming present in the previous incarnation of the codex have not been adressed, you can say with clear conciousness that it is plain wrong.

    GK,BA,AM,SM,CSM etc as a full priced codexes have the means (through variety or superiority) to be wielded alone.

    Secondly, I've heard lots of arguments that "Grey Knights rely on close combat to open armoured targets".. Well, in the game design lies one broblem:GK are just as fragile/sturdy than any other marine. Even the BA that are considered the most assault oriented army have meltaguns, multi melta landspeeders and so forth, so they are not forced into melee against some heavy armored unit that will hit them before their hammers can swing. And as we know, there is a huge difference in threat to ones safety when shooting and close combat are compared. Oh, and you still need to catch those vehicles by foot in order to assault them.

    Third problem is when unit or wargear changes its functionality. Adjusting or tweaking the effectiveness is one thing, but changing the role or purpose is altogether a different thing.
    I have 100+ GK PAGs and Terminators/Paladins, most equipped with NF Halberds. And now i am looking at a project, where i have to break the finished models, find the old sprues, new arms and weapons (most likely falchions then), build and paint them. Just because the fundamental change from survivability (hit first) to the hitting power (+1s). And then they give us +2str hammerhand

    Not cool, not cool at all..

    /EDIT:
    I hardly ever used coteaz or henchmen (ofc i tried them few times out of curiosity), nor did i rely on psyflemen (they were always shot down first anyway). So i used mainly Termies and purifiers, some random Strike Squads and few times paladins on bigger games.
    Last edited by Wildcard; 08-21-2014 at 07:33 AM.

  5. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfshade View Post
    The argument of balance is a joke, in a game of this level of complexity you cannot achieve balance and also, what you think of balanced another person may not. How many house rules have we seen that have been brought in to achieve a "balance" and yet others have decried as just as unbalanced.

    If we were talking about "perfect balance" I would agree with you. The more complex a game the harder that is to achieve. However, we are not talking about perfect balance. We are talking about at least attempting it. For the record, I don't consider 40K that complex a game. I think pretty good balance can be achieved. It is a system based on throwing a D6 and has a limited number of Stats. If costs were standardized to those Stats and a specific value to any special rules which apply across the board, you would end up with getting what you pay for. Some actual game testinging wouldn't hurt. It is hilarious that the people who write the rules are also the people who play the game least.

  6. #36

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    wish people would stop mentioning balance when ever a new book comes up... as wolfshade said this game is complex over a lot of years want to know what balance try useing the rule books made by GW with no house rules want to know why this is balanced because it is a 3ed party that made the rules giving the rules and not rules genirated by each of the players playing the game because each one could be that kid we all knew at a young age that must always win because of the rules he plays in his house.
    Those who judge without reason are no better then the things they judge.

  7. #37
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    As cait said. No its not that complex. No where near it
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  8. #38
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    The base game isn't so complex that it should be so wildly out of balance. It's obvious that GW has no serious interest in balancing their rule system. Paraphrasing a bit - They still refer to themselves as "a model company that just happens to make rules." If they really believe that why don't they release an army with no rules and see how well it sells.

    As for the GKs, it looks like they lost some of their flavor, just like the wolves. Now I truly fear how the pen will fall on my Dark Eldar.

  9. #39
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    Nerf?? what is this i call it rebalanced from what i see is people are butt hurt because now they need to use there brain and come up with a list and not use the standard cookie cutter build from the forums people forget GK are a elite army meaning there is meant to be some form of skill to use them also you guys will be dominating the psyker phase vs most army's now.
    Basically every single unit in the codex got significantly worse, with the exceptions of Librarians, Dreadknights, Draigo, and Terminators. In case you were confused, getting nerfed means that something got worse. So, by definition, almost the entire GK codex was nerfed. Most of said nerfed units were not particularly good in the first place. Several of them, in fact, were terrible. Terminators weren't very good to begin with, and really only got slightly cheaper while losing psybolt ammo and brotherhood banners, so they only really got slightly better. Draigo, Dreadknights, and Librarians does not a codex make.

    Just as important, the FOC layout of the codex is terrible. GKs are a very elite army, and we don't get a lot of units. Filling up your minimum troops and HQ takes up a lot more points for us than for basically every other army in the game, and now we're required to do so to get to any of the good things in the codex. At least the special detachment reduces us to one troops choice, but Strike Squads are terrible now and foot Terminators aren't particularly good so you'll want to invest more than the minimum to avoid just throwing away points, meaning every single list is stuck wasting points on mediocre crap, all because GW wants to force you to use Unbound. That's half the problem with the codex right there.

    I heard a lot of GK players cry out for a lord of war lately now you get one i hear some people are complaining about it no way to please people i guess...
    Huh? WTF are you talking about? I could have told you a year ago that making Draigo a LOW is bull****, and I would have been as correct then as I am now. Not that I ever heard myself or really any other GK players asking for Lords of War, because GKs don't really run superheavies and we can always take allies for that if we want. So really, not only did we get something we didn't want, but in the process of getting it we lost one of the only good HQ choices in the codex.

    I would not have turned down a Doom Dread Nemesis Knight, though. Who wouldn't want a Terminator wearing a Dreadknight wearing a Titan for a Lord of War?


    How about this instead of complaining about the new codex before anyone has really played any games with it. Try to think of a positive mindset about the changes after all everything has a reason to why it gets changed its not always well lets Nerf this and this so they buy new models after all everyone who is a GK player already have the dreaded baby carrier also there is not new kits so it cant really be that. Look at what happened to Tyranid players when they got there new book they moaned because there old builds became useless but now they have played it for a wile and have become quite a powerful army.
    The codex really didn't change very much, except in a few specific and very important ways. Some wargear just went away and points got shuffled a little bit. This "elite" army with very few units and options just lost options, special rules, and many of the things that made the army functional. The very, very few things that got better only really add up to one or two possible lists. This isn't rocket science. Sure, the internet exacerbates moderate talk into extremist rhetoric, but that does not mitigate the fact that the GK codex took a significant hit when it was already a middle tier codex at best in 6th and 7th. Plus, while most of the internet is mostly just follow the leader when it comes to opinions, there are plenty of competent players who have a solid handle on what is good and what isn't, particularly when they're intimately familiar with a particular army. So dismissing anything anyone says about anyone being even remotely negative is ironically judgmental given your signature.

    And Tyranids literally only got good because they got a bunch of brutally awesome formations months after the initial release; their initial clamor was quite justified. They just got another boost from some new Forgeworld units that cover up some key weaknesses in the codex, namely the new and awesome rules for Malenthropes.

    wish people would stop mentioning balance when ever a new book comes up... as wolfshade said this game is complex over a lot of years want to know what balance try useing the rule books made by GW with no house rules want to know why this is balanced because it is a 3ed party that made the rules giving the rules and not rules genirated by each of the players playing the game because each one could be that kid we all knew at a young age that must always win because of the rules he plays in his house.
    I've found a few lists so far I'm reasonably happy with. That doesn't mean that this was a good release, or that I'm happy with the codex. Beyond those few builds, most everything is pretty bad, or just plain terrible. Where the previous codex had great internal balance where you could make basically every unit work if you wanted, the new codex is split into haves and have-nots. I have nearly a full company of power armor Grey Knights that are just going to sit on the shelf collecting dust now. I might play a unit of Purifiers on occasion, because Cleansing Flame is pretty hilarious. But there are very limited options when you're faced with Eldar, Tau, Daemons, SM Bikers/Drop Pods, etc. That there are at least a few options and that we might be able to figure out one or two more as time goes on is not cause for celebration.
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  10. #40

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    Nerf really your that delutional to belive that is what nerfing meens... wow did you come from a video game? nerf by factor is changing a rule set in a current edition because it is belived to be overpowered when the thing that is being changed is still in said edition.

    Reballanced meens a outdated rule in a older edition considered to be unstable to the new rule set edition you do recall we are now in 7th edition not 6th and this new edition comes with a new phase.

    now on to the lord of war when apoc came out and escaltion i heard alot of issues regaurding "where is the grey knights lord of war" some people out right refusing to play games with lord of wars because well grey knights had a hard time when fighting lord of wars without one.

    onto your next point maybe they removed stuff for some reason being that those units are in another book or to make the army less overbearing with its rules but that is down to the creators it could also be legal reasons because having no model for a unit in the book could make issues like the chapter house lawsuit. i agree with the point regaurding negitivity but i can do that too dismissing anything anyone says about anyone being even remotely positive is ironic to what you coment on my signature

    Limited options? the limits are what you see them as if you think outside the box a unit can have more useis then what other people think it could have that is the reason we play thease sort of games to outwit and outplay your foes the problem latly people belive a list should be able to steamroll a player because of its construction heres a exsample i use IK because the model is sexy and they are powerful there was people telling me i was gonna win because knights are OP do you want know what happend turn 2 vs tau he managed to get a unit behind my knight and a riptide that i was going to blow the hell out of infront of me the unit that he got on my flank it blew up the knight in that turn because he put me in a position that i could not defend myself that there was not over powered nore was it broken i call it he outplayed me and won the match because he did somthing i did not expect from a tau player and that there is how people should be playing the game using wits not building a list that have a define perpous like taking heldrakes because you think your going up agienst horde army's versitility is the aim here not define perpous

    Sorry about spelling the spell checker site has gone down
    Last edited by Xaric; 08-22-2014 at 03:42 PM.
    Those who judge without reason are no better then the things they judge.

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