Thunderwolf Cav + Power fist = Str 9 or 10?

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

I have a question for you all. Dose a Space Wolf, Thunderwolf rider, armed with a Power fist, hit at str 9 or 10? Is there a difference between a Wolf lord or Iron Priest who has a Thunderwolf mount and a model from the Thunderwolf Cavalry unit. I was reading a article on 3++ about mistakes people make when playing 40k. [url]http://www.3plusplus.net/2014/08/mistake-mondays-7th-seal-edition/[/url] #9 says.

If a model has more than one modifier to its characteristics, apply any doublings/halvings before adding or subtracting any values. So, for example, a Wolf Lord on a Thunderwolf with a Power Fist would be Strength 9 (4 x 2 = 8, 8 + 1 = 9), not Strength 10.

I have to say i agree and think it should also apply to Thunderwolf Cavalry. There are people out there who don't don't see it that way though. Over on Forge The Narrative Kenny has a list that he thinks pumps out 30+ str 10 assault attack. on August 15 they posted a list. [url]https://www.facebook.com/ForgeTheNarrative[/url]

If you even care about this, tell me how you see it.

[40kGamer]

In this case it is 10. The +1 S for TWC changes the base Strength of the model to 5 (it is not a +1 modifier like Furious Charge). So it becomes (S5 x 2 = 10) per the formula above.

[DarkLink]

Right. They did away with the 4(5) stuff a few editions ago.

[hyudun]

This is how I read it:

"Certain pieces of wargear or special rules can modify a model’s characteristics positively or negatively by adding to it (+1, +2, etc.)..." (Models & Units)

This establishes that when a piece of Wargear changes a model's characteristics, it is considered a Modifier (capital M).

In the Space Wolves Codex entry, Thunderwolf Mount is listed as Wargear. (Wargear of the Fang -> Special Issue Wargear)

"In addition, a model upgraded to have a Thunderwolf mount increases their Strength, Toughness, Attacks and Wounds characteristics by 1 (these bonuses are already included in the profiles of models that have a Thunderwolf mount as part of their standard wargear)." (Wargear of the Fang -> Special Issue Wargear -> Thunderwolf Mount)

This implies that the "original" (not ever formally defined, but we are forced to infer its existence here) S, T, A, and W characteristic of any unit that comes with a Thunderwolf Mount is 1 less than what's listed in the unit entry & summary pages.

So back to:
"If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values." (Models & Units)

If it doesn't come with a Thunderwolf Mount standard, then x2 for the fist and + 1 for the Mount = 9 in most, if not all, cases.
If it does come with a Thunderwolf Mount standard, then -1 to get original value, then x2 for the fest and + 1 for the Mount = 9 in most, if not all, cases.

My conclusion: it's Str 9 for any model with a Powerfist and a Thunderwolf Mount.

Side note: I don't think the 4(5) comparison is relevant because the 4(5) rule outright negated modifiers from any special rule in specific contexts, rather than determine the order in which it is applied.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

This is how I read it:

"Certain pieces of wargear or special rules can modify a model’s characteristics positively or negatively by adding to it (+1, +2, etc.)..." (Models & Units)

This establishes that when a piece of Wargear changes a model's characteristics, it is considered a Modifier (capital M).

In the Space Wolves Codex entry, Thunderwolf Mount is listed as Wargear. (Wargear of the Fang -> Special Issue Wargear)

"In addition, a model upgraded to have a Thunderwolf mount increases their Strength, Toughness, Attacks and Wounds characteristics by 1 (these bonuses are already included in the profiles of models that have a Thunderwolf mount as part of their standard wargear)." (Wargear of the Fang -> Special Issue Wargear -> Thunderwolf Mount)

This implies that the "original" (not ever formally defined, but we are forced to infer its existence here) S, T, A, and W characteristic of any unit that comes with a Thunderwolf Mount is 1 less than what's listed in the unit entry & summary pages.

So back to:
"If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values." (Models & Units)

If it doesn't come with a Thunderwolf Mount standard, then x2 for the fist and + 1 for the Mount = 9 in most, if not all, cases.
If it does come with a Thunderwolf Mount standard, then -1 to get original value, then x2 for the fest and + 1 for the Mount = 9 in most, if not all, cases.

My conclusion: it's Str 9 for any model with a Powerfist and a Thunderwolf Mount.

Side note: I don't think the 4(5) comparison is relevant because the 4(5) rule outright negated modifiers from any special rule in specific contexts, rather than determine the order in which it is applied.

100% this. Well said. I'm going to share this argument other places.

[Mr Mystery]

In this case it is 10. The +1 S for TWC changes the base Strength of the model to 5 (it is not a +1 modifier like Furious Charge). So it becomes (S5 x 2 = 10) per the formula above.

This.

[hyudun]

In this case it is 10. The +1 S for TWC changes the base Strength of the model to 5 (it is not a +1 modifier like Furious Charge). So it becomes (S5 x 2 = 10) per the formula above.

This.

How is the +1 S from TWM "not a +1 modifier like Furious Charge"?

My argument for it indeed being "a +1 modifier like Furious Charge":

The reason why you calculate Furious Charge post-powerfirst multiplier is because of the combination of these two excerpts:

1. "Certain pieces of wargear or special rules can modify a model’s characteristics positively or negatively by adding to it (+1, +2, etc.)..." (Models & Units)"
2. "If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values." (Models & Units)

There is literally nothing else in the Rulebook that explains how to calculate Furious Charge and Powerfists combined; both excerpts also include Wargear, which Thunderwolf Mount is considered as per the Space Wolf Codex, ergo TWM IS like Furious Charge. You cannot treat them differently when determining the order of operations with other modifiers.

I'm curious to hear your counter-argument.

[presto15]

Right. They did away with the 4(5) stuff a few editions ago.

I agree. Str. 10

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

How is the +1 S from TWM "not a +1 modifier like Furious Charge"?

My argument for it indeed being "a +1 modifier like Furious Charge":

The reason why you calculate Furious Charge post-powerfirst multiplier is because of the combination of these two excerpts:

1. "Certain pieces of wargear or special rules can modify a model’s characteristics positively or negatively by adding to it (+1, +2, etc.)..." (Models & Units)"
2. "If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values." (Models & Units)

There is literally nothing else in the Rulebook that explains how to calculate Furious Charge and Powerfists combined; both excerpts also include Wargear, which Thunderwolf Mount is considered as per the Space Wolf Codex, ergo TWM IS like Furious Charge. You cannot treat them differently when determining the order of operations with other modifiers.

I'm curious to hear your counter-argument.

I have been looking around for the answers and found a great 5 page thread on Dakkadakka. It's closded now but still a great read.
[url]http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/609952.page[/url]

[Tyrendian]

RAW it's S9 methinks, but at least in the old 'dex (don't have the new one yet...) Thunderwolf Cav units were S5 T5, so with a fist the normal dudes were S10, at which point it seemed exceedingly stupid to then make Wolf Lords weaker because they had to buy the mount after the fact... no idea how much of that still holds true though, so feel free to ignore me