When a proxy isn't a proxy

[40kGamer]

I'll just leave this here...

Ah the old repurposed deodorant container from RT days. Back when a plastic spoon could be pressed into service to act as the turret for the TL guns on a wave serpent and when the VDR allowed you to build whatever you wanted for your list.

[AndrewDart]

I'll just leave this here...

The above was "proxied" in a time where tank models didn't exist.. I'm all for converted proxies, but if it doesn't show effort and a real desire to improve the quality of the game with the proxy, then the overall effect cheapens the game.

Can maxmini weapons proxy in for GW weapons? Yeah, sure. Can a piece of garbage, poker chips, or a potato represent a vehicle? Hell no. But if a guy scratch builds a Titan from plastic boxes, tunes, plastic sheets - that's a different story. Effort is the key to allowing proxies, in my mind.

[Faultie]

I'll just leave this here...

Oh man, I have that old Citadel Journal that those premiered in. Also had a very cool Arbites wagon thing.

[Casey Brown]

I'll just leave this here...

Exactly! I was just about to post that same image. The first ever 40k vehicle was that converted deodorant bottle, and they had instructions on how you could make your own.

Here's my 2 cents: If you lovingly convert/scratchbuild/whatever-you-wanna-call-it a model and we can both agree on what it represents, then I'll play against you.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Actual photo of BoLS Lounge user Xaric:

You summed up my thoughts better than my thoughts summed themselves.

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Additionally, I think I agree that Effort is key in deciding whether a proxy/counts-as will be okay to field. If it's something someone's clearly designed and built from the start for a certain look, rather than an object grabbed off the side.

Now, I play in a store where most players have unpainted armies or simply horribly painted ones. It's sad but true, I've tried to push painted armies as have the store owners, but ultimately it's me and a couple of vets who field painted or mostly painted armies, (I'm a couple of dozen Conscripts and a Leman Russ Executioner away from a fully painted 2K Guard force.) I personally aim to take as long as it takes to paint and build a mini, so my few months of playing Guard has only just seen me reach the point where I can field 1500pts painted, depending on the list I build.

There's a lot of, "these Devastators all have Lascannons, but the kit came with two so a couple are Plasma Cannons," or, "the Meltaguns in this Wolf squad are both Plasma Guns," etc, etc. My armies are mostly WYSIWYG, but occasionally I'll trial a Chimera as another Devildog, or the Meltaguns in my Gue'vesa Veteran squad will be Plasma for a match.

As long as everything's agreed on and explained, it's fine IMO. We have had a new Necron player start a month ago who's been fielding 2K lists with 1500pts of proxies minis. Irritatingly, said player is also an extreme powergamer, and the cobbled-together mishmash of unpainted models has been sweeping games.

[GrauGeist]

That is a scratchbuild / conversion, not a proxy. And a good one.

By the Rule of Cool, it would be allowed.

The Ork stuff is lazy and crappy.

[Denzark]

That is a scratchbuild / conversion, not a proxy. And a good one.

By the Rule of Cool, it would be allowed.

The Ork stuff is lazy and crappy.

The Grav Attack is a scratch build - it even had its own rules. This model is in effect number one of a handmade run of one and doesn't feature in a conversation on proxying.

[Path Walker]

A proxy is, as most people have said, using an object ot an existing model to take the place of a model in the game, if you're playing with a friend on the expressed reasons of trying out a models rules before you buy one, thats one thing, its not for me, I'm all about the cool models, I couldn't give a monkeys if its effective in a game, I'll still use it and I wouldn't like my opponent to do it either, as it ruins the look of the game and my suspension of disbelief, I wouldn't be the guy to go to test out tactics on anyway, it would bore me.

That said, a cool custom conversion is another thing altogether, but, when there is an existing model and you've converted your own to save money and it looks like ****e (as most of them do, seriously guy with unpatinted papercraft manticore missiles on top of a chimera, **** off.) then it again, ruins what I like about the game.

[Jose A. Fabian]

Pardon me if I go in a tangent but a lot of people touch upon this subject.

In this case cost =/= quality e.g. a Tamiya model vs a GW model. Compare an M113 APC's cost and amount of detail to a rhino. [url]http://www.amazon.com/Tamiya-Models-M113A2-Desert-Version/dp/B000WN6SM4/ref=sr_1_2?s=toys-and-games&ie=UTF8&qid=1410894839&sr=1-2&keywords=Tamiya+m113[/url] Vs [url]http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Space-Marine-Rhino[/url]

Same cost, 37 dollars, how can GW be considered top quality or expensive in any way besides inflation of price?

[Wolfshade]

I think the trouble is that we often mix and match the two terms as they are very interchangeable.

Consider my flamer marine in a tactical squad, only this game instead of being a flamer her is actually a meltaguner.

Now is is flamer a count-as meltagun, or am I proxying the flamer as a melta?

I mean both work fine.

I think that when we see something we have an expectation and also that that is dependent on what/where we are.

So, for instance, I think in most situations someone wouldn't have a problem with the swap as described above. However, if I were to be playing in a tournament, then I would expect incredulation that the flamer was a melta.

I think that whatever it is it should be easily identifiable.

If I were playing my mates and I explained that I was trying out a different build then using counters or paper-cutouts while I trial an idea or two, I imagine that that would be fine, but what I am using must be about the same sort of size and I would also expect that if that this went on for awhile that it might be irksome.

If I were playing at my flgs I personally dislike things that are less than 3 colour minimum.

I think one of things that irritates people is how sometimes these things can shift. Stood infront of swarms the flamer is a flamer, infront of heavy infantry boom it is a gravgun/plasma gun, sneaking up on the back of tank behold it is a meltagun. Or it changes which model has the upgrade etc.

I think we know what we like, and what we don't like however trying to write it down is harder to do.

Of course the one thing that completely overrules all of these it is the rule of cool.

If it looks good then it really doesn't matter about anything else.