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  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowcatX View Post
    What's wrong with having a single ability be good against terminators? And why take the signature special rule of the eldar (battle focus) away from the eldar? Do you likewise take away ATSKNF away from marines? And how is having AP 2 good against other eldar when not a single thing in the eldar army has a 2+ save (other than perhaps some special characters no one uses)?

    And again, let me point out that eldar are not dominating the tournament scene, so the need for any kind of balance adjustments is dubious at best.
    appreciate the discussion - but it is on a thread entitled - 'please nerf the eldar".

    and since 'battle focus' was only 'invented in 2014 - and i have played eldar since they were tiny metal space elves - its hardly valid to claim it as a 'signature ability'.

    equally the new 'bladestorm' rule replaced an alternative rule of the same name but vastly less impact.

    there are two essential sides to the 'nerf eldar debate' - and for 'formal competition' the current rules will obviously apply; but for 'friendly games' there is no reason why players shouldnt investigate ways of reducing the effectiveness of certain eldar units or rules. i am merely sharing suggestions that we have used that havent in any way unbalanced our games.

    another poster made the point that an army with a seer council, three wraithknights and a few wave serpents is virtually unstoppable; but surely no one brings that combo to a pick up or friendly game without telling the opponent first ?

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowcatX View Post
    Over represented, perhaps, but that speaks to their perceived power level, not their actual power level. The results of 5 tounaments from this month are posted over at torrent of fire, Eldar won 1. As did tau, imperial knights, I believe necrons and space marines, though the space marine tourny was highlander. Even if you discount that 1 in 4 wins for an army that is over represented is not a great showing.
    And until very recently, eldar had the highest win ratio of any army by a significant margin. And counting only first place as the absolute qualifier for power level is a mistake. There have been several major tournaments in the last year or so where the top ten had like 7 eldar armies in it.
    I am the Hammer. I am the right hand of my Emperor. I am the tip of His spear, I am the gauntlet about His fist. I am the woes of daemonkind. I am the Hammer.

  3. #63

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    Yes, until recently eldar dominated, partly because people hadn't adjusted and partly because waac players jumped on the eldar band wagon. But also recently we have had an edition change with several important rules changes that served to nerf the eldar, and people have learned how to fight them. If you look at current win percentages Eldar are not first, and only barely hold on to second.

    Do eldar have a couple of units that are too good for their cost? Sure. Are eldar the only army in that position? Not hardly. That's no reason to call for army wide nerfs like the loss of the eldar only army wide special rule (which does make it a signature, regardless of what some people might claim) or for a nerf to their weakest units.
    Last edited by ShadowcatX; 11-28-2014 at 09:12 PM.

  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowcatX View Post
    Yes, until recently eldar dominated, partly because people hadn't adjusted and partly because waac players jumped on the eldar band wagon. But also recently we have had an edition change with several important rules changes that served to nerf the eldar, and people have learned how to fight them. If you look at current win percentages Eldar are not first, and only barely hold on to second.

    Do eldar have a couple of units that are too good for their cost? Sure. Are eldar the only army in that position? Not hardly. That's no reason to call for army wide nerfs like the loss of the eldar only army wide special rule (which does make it a signature, regardless of what some people might claim) or for a nerf to their weakest units.
    think its great that threads like this exist. as it shows the variety in thinking over the whole community.

    as GW themselves admit this is a game for the players.

    house ruling is as much part of wargaming as painting and arguing over rules !

    i can run dozens of highly competive eldar builds - as can any player - without even using tau or DE allies.

    again i stress this OP thread was about 'nerfing' eldar - and I appreciate the viewpoint which says 'learn to beat whats in front of you'.

    BUT if a meta group is quite small and they dont have huge 30 year army collections to choose from then having a few simple 'nerf adjustments' may make their gaming experience a bit more enjoyable.

    as shadow says - im not personally worried about battle focus - as it only benefits 3 or 4 eldar units and a sensible opponent draws them out and then fries them [unless they get 'invisibility' or 'super-shroud' ]

    bladestorm is a bit more lethal - but again as a PP says it gives cheap DAR troops some parity with DE poison when fighting heavy units such as Terminators or MC.

    I would still be tempted at lower points values [say under 1500pts] to say that these abilities could at least be tempered - we have looked at D3 +1" battle focus [remember the eldar with battle focus are all 'fleet' as well] and at reducing 'blasdestorm' on catapaults to AP3 on '6'. On the opposite side of the coin; neither these tweaks or similar are going to 'destroy' eldar.

    probably the most abusive unit for the entire codex is warp spiders - but they are dependant on reasonable terrain coverage.

    would like to know from the OP exactly which units he has problems with and the points values they play at.

  5. #65

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    I am quite aware of the thread title, that doesn't mean I agree with the premice. Nor am I required to. As to you wishing you knew what the op has problems with, have you read the first post, because I'm pretty sure I know what he has a problem with.

    And if someone can't compete because they purchased bad units and didn't plan their list ahead of time, or won't give up fielding their favorite bad unit, that's not the eldar player's fault. Maybe a few beatings at the table will make people think out their purchases and help us get away from a culture of "I know is bad but I'm going to use it anyways, and now that I can't win let's nerf everything down to where I can beat it with my bad units."

    And yes, I am aware that battle focus units are generally fleet, that's called synergy. I'm sorry, if someone isn't good enough to beat guardians, they are part of the problem, not the solution.

  6. #66

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    What would you recommend against, say, eldar army with 4 wave serpents with 5 dire avengers inside, 2 farseers on bikes, warp spiders, 3x shadow weaver and, gruesomely - 2 wraithknights.
    Most of the time, there's either invisibility or stealth to give serpents 2+ jinks.
    I play Astra Militarum and most of the time when I try to focus on the knights, the serpents shoot everything down. When I try to get rid of the serpents - knights come charging, with that T8, and S10.
    Warp spiders destroy my tanks and shadow weavers are hidden and provide constant bombardment.

    Instead of whining about how op some of the eldar units are, I would like to find a way to deal with them Any advices and help?

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nite View Post
    What would you recommend against, say, eldar army with 4 wave serpents with 5 dire avengers inside, 2 farseers on bikes, warp spiders, 3x shadow weaver and, gruesomely - 2 wraithknights.
    Most of the time, there's either invisibility or stealth to give serpents 2+ jinks.
    I play Astra Militarum and most of the time when I try to focus on the knights, the serpents shoot everything down. When I try to get rid of the serpents - knights come charging, with that T8, and S10.
    Warp spiders destroy my tanks and shadow weavers are hidden and provide constant bombardment.

    Instead of whining about how op some of the eldar units are, I would like to find a way to deal with them Any advices and help?
    Use the "Imperial Armour Book One - Second Edition Imperial Guard" Armored Battalion list. Upgrade some tanks to use beast-hunter shells and you can instant-kill those wraith knights in a single shot. It's either that or pile on with as many Veteran squads and plasma guns as you can field and go for broke.
    http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?52423-The-Blood-Pact-Chaos-Homebrew-Supplement&p=472214&viewfull=1#post472214

  8. #68

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    Allied in Imperial knights could help as well. And wave serpents with a 2+ jink mean nothing if you ignore cover. Also, jinking itself cuts down a wave serpent's fire power considerably, once one has jinked move to the next target.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nite View Post
    What would you recommend against, say, eldar army with 4 wave serpents with 5 dire avengers inside, 2 farseers on bikes, warp spiders, 3x shadow weaver and, gruesomely - 2 wraithknights.
    Most of the time, there's either invisibility or stealth to give serpents 2+ jinks.
    I play Astra Militarum and most of the time when I try to focus on the knights, the serpents shoot everything down. When I try to get rid of the serpents - knights come charging, with that T8, and S10.
    Warp spiders destroy my tanks and shadow weavers are hidden and provide constant bombardment.

    Instead of whining about how op some of the eldar units are, I would like to find a way to deal with them Any advice and help?
    Eldar has been my primary army since 2nd edition (boy did they have some shenanigans then! Warp Spider Exarch with Fast Shot, Bright Lance, and 2++) and though I often win with them when I want too, there is definitely a way to deal with any list.
    Part of this depends on what army you have, as some armies can more easily deal with others. A Dark Eldar army can chew up WraithKnights with all of their poisoned weapons (Splinter rifles are still poisoned, right?) and Dark Lances.
    That type of Eldar list still has its linchpin, The 2 WraithKnights or the Wave Serpents. Ignore the rest, and focus on taking down one of those two groups.
    Lets say you play Tyranids. Play a horde list, those WraithKnights can insta death your MCs from range. But 20 'gaunts can tarpit any WraithKnight! That's an 80pt unit neutralizing a 240+ unit for several turns or more! Flying MC's can Vector Strike those Wave Serpents and Hive Guard can also help to drop the Serpents.

    And for your AM: Vendetta's, Basilisks, Leman Russ's with LasCannons (Vanquishers), and heavy weapon teams. Give him too many targets to deal with. If you only have 2-4 really killy expensive units it is too easy for both WraithKnights to focus on them. Consider Inquisitor Coteaz attached to a large infantry platoon. His ability allows his unit to immediately fire at any enemy unit arriving from reserves (Warp Spiders). Deploy your tanks so the Warp Spiders cannot deep strike in your rear arc and that your Front Armor is facing most of the Eldar Force and your side armor is obscured, even by another tank, to get that 5++ save. Since this will likely put your force close together, focus everything on the WraithKnights first. Bring them down before they can close in. If deploying second, then do so max distance from the WK's.
    The Wave Serpents will have a tough time with the Leman Russ armor, and unless they have Bright Lances wont' be able to penetrate your front or side armor at all.

  10. #70

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    Hi, sorry it took me some time to respond - I've written the reply 3 times now, and due to cpu problems everything got deleted :P Anyway!

    @ Katharon - Sadly, my playgroup is not using IA. As for the vets - I've tried that, but their numbers got severely decreased by shadow weavers and some serpents. So when the wraithknights got into their range it wasn't enough fire power. Also successfuly cast invisibility on the knights didn't help either.

    @ShadowcatX - I've tried that actually, but got quite unlucky with my ion shield saves, and my opponent got to roll those "6"s even after jinking, with the scatterlaser re-roll. With the power giving everything rending against the knight, he got rid of it in turn 2. In the meantime warpspiders got rid of my tanks.

    @JMichael - Vendetta's got shot easily with seprents last time I played. They were jinking and firing snapshots anyway, and with the re-roll it got nasty. And all of the lascannon's shots were saved with that 2+ cover (stealth bulb from farseer). I haven't yet tried the Heavy Weapon Team spam. They seem too fragile. Although I might try that with all of the other things you've mentioned. I was testing conscript blobs most of the time recently, maybe it's time to get back to good old, all-shooty army.

    Thank you all for the answers and advices!

    I was also crazily considering ratlings against the wraithknight and culexus assassin in vendetta to counter the farseers. What do you think?

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