A Petition to Games Workshop

[Eldar_Atog]

Some counter points.

1) keyboard warriors. They reach out, and receive abuse. If it's a public forum type thing? That's not good for them. If the goon squad could just wind their necks in and look into constructive criticism, we might see a stronger dialogue.

I can't argue with this. The public forums are going to be a neutral environment even in the best of circumstances. It just draws a lot of negativity. It takes a thick skinned community organizer to make this work. I wonder sometimes if Bols is so negative because of bitter 40K players or just that a dystopian game draws people with pessimistic mindsets.

2) FW do reach out. Warhammer Fest was fun, and apparently organised by FW primarily, and they attend various conventions. For GW, the cost may not work out. After all, you need to fly out big names to make it worth it. One could argue (and not saying it's necessarily a strong one!) that their own stores mean they can reach out in a more cost effective way, as anyone wandering in can be shown the whole gamut of the hobby (which to me is more customs service than others can offer themselves)

I can't see the cost being the issue. Think about it.. If the smaller gaming companies can afford a high end booth at GenCon then there must be something going on besides a money issue. A GW booth with a couple of the Heavy Metal painters and a community organizers would get a lot of foot traffic. In 2014, Gencon attendance was about 60,000 people. And that's a drop in the bucket compared to ComicCon.

Most of the marketing people I know would be literally salivating over that much foot traffic for 4 days. Actually, does GW even have a marketing department?

3) yeah GD went downhill - and I don't think it's just our increasing maturity. They keep a tight rein on leaks and previews, apparently/allegedly because they don't want to give third parties the time to produce knock off versions of new kits.

I think it's just one of those things. I know what good customer service means to me, but it's not a universally definable trait. Good example? I like staff to acknowledge me when I'm in store, and to engage me about what I'm up to. GW do this, so I'm happy. Others prefer to be left alone to browse in peace. And you know, that's all personal preference, and neither is more correct a method than the other. But GW have made their choice.

Sadly for some GW just isn't going to be the company they want.

True.. That is the conclusion I came to after 7th edition. I can either keep being dissappointed or I can move on to something else. I'm not going to do a massive model dump on Ebay but I'll probably never go on another 40K buying binge.

[Caitsidhe]

Games Workshop is simply out of touch. The good thing about this disucssion is we have a real life laboratory in which to watch things unfold. What is more, it isn't as if we have to prove the theory of evolution. Things are moving along at a rather good pace and I expect we will have satsifactory answers within a year or two at most. Games Workshop doesn't really care about its customers because Games Workshop, i.e. the people running it now, aren't players. They aren't even collectors. This is just a job to them. As other people have commented, folks who have personal contact with them and their comparny environment, they don't have anything to do with the game in their down time.

Why is that a problem? The best designers and spokespersons for a hobby are those who indulge. They do it for the love of the hobby/craft/game itself. Everybody loves a good paycheck. That isn't the same thing. It is a truth of life that you want someone who lives and breaths for something to be the person you hire. The best Fencers don't just train a certain number of hours and get on the strip when they compete. Fencing is both their job and their hobby. The best painters, authors, singers, etc. all say they would be doing what they love whether they were paid to do it or not. They do it even when they aren't on the clock. Games Workshop isn't there. They aren't us. They are just the unhappy kid at the Mall wearing a stupid hat at the food court slinging chow.

[CoffeeGrunt]

If only that were true.

Ask any video game designer what the last possible thing they could be bothered to do after a day of animating dudes running around on a screen is, and it would likely be, "playing video games or staring at a screen for even more hours."

Hell, just ask your FLGS manager. Many of them don't play in their spare time because their entire job is trying to make models, paint them, and get people playing, and so they spend their free time doing anything other than that.

Saying that gamers would make far better games is like saying everyone who enjoys eating food is automatically a Michelin-star chef.

[Caitsidhe]

If only that were true.

Ask any video game designer what the last possible thing they could be bothered to do after a day of animating dudes running around on a screen is, and it would likely be, "playing video games or staring at a screen for even more hours."

Hell, just ask your FLGS manager. Many of them don't play in their spare time because their entire job is trying to make models, paint them, and get people playing, and so they spend their free time doing anything other than that.

Saying that gamers would make far better games is like saying everyone who enjoys eating food is automatically a Michelin-star chef.

It is true. The best Chefs are foodies. The best game designers play video games. The best movie makers love cinema and going to the movies. People who love something can't wait to do it. That is why they get better at it than everyone else. Am I suggesting that everyone who works for Games Workshop needs to be a game fanatic? No, far from it. I'm suggesting that the people who design the game should be. The people who handle public relations and outreach should be. Having people create and market the product that have nothing in common with the people who actually use the product is idiotic.

[Darren Richardson]

No, far from it. I'm suggesting that the people who design the game should be.

Ultimatly the person who runs the company should be a gaming fanatic, if he cares about the ngame, then he will steer the company correctly to ensure the game he loves playing, continues to thrive and prosper....

If people who ran companys all the time didn't enjoy what their companies produce, we wouldn't have Pixar, Dreamworks, Marvel etc.....

[CoffeeGrunt]

It is true. The best Chefs are foodies. The best game designers play video games. The best movie makers love cinema and going to the movies. People who love something can't wait to do it. That is why they get better at it than everyone else. Am I suggesting that everyone who works for Games Workshop needs to be a game fanatic? No, far from it. I'm suggesting that the people who design the game should be. The people who handle public relations and outreach should be. Having people create and market the product that have nothing in common with the people who actually use the product is idiotic.

Not true. Stanley Kubrick, for example, made excellent movies via excruciatingly obsessive takes and retakes, and highly abusive measures towards his cast and crew to get the right work out of them.

While the best chefs love food, not all who love food are good chefs. While the best games designers play video games, not all do. We're raised on the view that the perfect job is to do your hobby for money, while reality is far from this more often than not.

More to the point, if you have someone who enjoys playing the game dictating how it goes, they will promote their game. Arguably this is precisely what is happening, but the problem is that the game they want to play is not the game you want to play, and thus you feel they're not even trying to make a "fun" game because it's so distant to what you want to play.

[Caitsidhe]

Ultimatly the person who runs the company should be a gaming fanatic, if he cares about the ngame, then he will steer the company correctly to ensure the game he loves playing, continues to thrive and prosper....

If people who ran companys all the time didn't enjoy what their companies produce, we wouldn't have Pixar, Dreamworks, Marvel etc.....

Oh, I don't disagree with the sentiment that the company would be better answerable to the consumers if the CEO was a fanatic, however, I don't think that is a requirement. A good CEO (or whatever title a particularl company uses) is quite capable of managing a product which he/she doesn't use or care about. They have to be talented, however, and know how to delegate authority and jobs to those who are fanatics. In other words, they have to hire the right people for the right job. You hire the best to design the models. You hire the best to design the games. Right now they have awful management, a man who lives in a bubble and says crazy stuff. He is stepping aside but has given us a clear indication that he is still running things.

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Not true. Stanley Kubrick, for example, made excellent movies via excruciatingly obsessive takes and retakes, and highly abusive measures towards his cast and crew to get the right work out of them.

Ummm... what part of what you just said doesn't prove my point? Stanely Kubrick is obsessive and does takes and retakes. The highly abusive measures towards his actors and crew have no bearing on his personal love of cinema and passion toward his art. The man was driven to create film after film and demanded final cut. He is exactly the kind of person I'm talking about. He makes great movies because making movies is what he does.

While the best chefs love food, not all who love food are good chefs. While the best games designers play video games, not all do. We're raised on the view that the perfect job is to do your hobby for money, while reality is far from this more often than not.

Not all do, but the best ALWAYS do.

More to the point, if you have someone who enjoys playing the game dictating how it goes, they will promote their game. Arguably this is precisely what is happening, but the problem is that the game they want to play is not the game you want to play, and thus you feel they're not even trying to make a "fun" game because it's so distant to what you want to play.

You have no clue what game I want to play. What I am talking about right now is business. We have a company culture that has evolved at Games Workshop wherein the people who work there are far removed from the people who actually purchase and use their product. That is simply a bad business model. It has nothing to do with the game I want to play or the game you want to play. It is just bad business.

[CoffeeGrunt]

You have no clue what game I want to play. What I am talking about right now is business. We have a company culture that has evolved at Games Workshop wherein the people who work there are far removed from the people who actually purchase and use their product. That is simply a bad business model. It has nothing to do with the game I want to play or the game you want to play. It is just bad business.

Not the same game as many others, as many others want to play a different game to the others in the community. With that diversity in mind, and with the fact that any attempt to open up would result in nothing but a tidal wave of bile, why would GW want to spend the effort to do so? It's not exactly going to make them any more money.

Also not every chef is fat, and not everyone good at their job enjoys it. Conversely, not everyone who enjoys their job is good at it.

[Caitsidhe]

Not the same game as many others, as many others want to play a different game to the others in the community. With that diversity in mind, and with the fact that any attempt to open up would result in nothing but a tidal wave of bile, why would GW want to spend the effort to do so? It's not exactly going to make them any more money.

Ok, let me break this down.

1. A balanced, well-designed game has no effect one way or the other on those who just collect and paint models. This means they shouldn't care.
2. A balanced, well-designed game has no effect on those playing narrative games either, because they just change the rules however they need.
3. A balanced well-designed game brings in more players who do care about this option.

In short, there is NO DOWNSIDE to building a product that includes another third of your potential gaming market. A well-designed game in no way affects the other two thirds of players. It doesn't take anything away from them. In fact, they only stand to benefit as they too get a better designed, balanced game. If it is something they don't use, they lost nothing. My point is that if you are a BUSINESS and it costs you NOTHING to design your product to have a broader appeal there is no reason not to do it. In fact, not doing it is costs you money. It is stupid.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Arguably the game is becoming more balanced, the 2014 Codices, against each other, are more fair than any of the 2012/2013 Codices against each other, (Dark Angels/Chaos Marines vs Tau/Eldar, loooooooool!)

However, the prevalent complaints now are blandness due to the flavour being squeezed to flatten the plateau of game balance. Ultimately, it's highly difficult to write in quirky, characterful rules and make sure they can't be exploited. Hence why WMH's rules are fairly standardised and each faction is simply tougher, faster or shootier than the others, with anything even remotely unique like Eyeless Sight being constantly whined about. Each Caster basically has a once-a-game gimmick to combo off, but other than that aren't that special.