Anime cosplayer shot dead while being black.

[Anthrax ion pusscabe]

My point was the police shouldn't jump straight to shoot to kill when they draw firearms, they should until all options have been expended shoot to dibilitat, I've heard great police stories of them not jumping straight to shoot to kill, he'll I saw a news story where to guys with assault rifles robed a bank and killed a few people (both civilian and police) and the police stuck to shooting with the aim of debilitating them over killing them, the job of the police isn't to kill suspects it is to capture suspects so they can go through the proper legal system, ending another human life should never be done unless absolutely necessary as a last resort after all other options have been extinguished, police in Australia are very heavily ingrained to apprehend as a primary even after having deadly force authorisation, it doesn't always work but what's the point in having courts and jails and prison sentence standards for assault and public rampages if you never intend to actually apprehend the perpetrator, I'm all for the police, they have a extremely hard and dangerous job I could never do, but in some country's and individual cases they need to be taught and reminded that they are meant to apprehend suspects over killing suspects in all but the most extreme cases, here in Australia they get drilled very heavily on using minimal force necessary to stop a situation, there are very minimal cases here where police officers kill someone even in situations where the suspect is armed and dangerous
And my point with the case 1 and case 2 was that case 2 used the correct procedure that I agree with while case 1 used excessive force, I have nothing against the police using firearms on suspects, I have a problem with them jumping straight to shoot to kill when it's also possible to shoot to debilitate

[Bigred]

Not exactly on topic but close, but this is the one that stuck with me over the years. I remember reading both of these the same day during the Hurricane Katrina disaster and feeling equally pissed off by the shoddy reporting:

[eldargal]

Mike Brown in Ferguson was shot repeatedly while surrendering to police according to something like nine witnesses. Another black man was shot 16 times while walking down the street carrying a sandwich. A black man was shot in an open carry state for trying to buy an airgun. This anime cosplayer was shot for carrying a plastic weapon. A black American is three times more likely to be killed by police intervention than a white American. Another guy was shot by police at his own barbecue for no reason, another young man was arrested in his OWN HOME because neighbours assumed he was a ****ing burglar, etc etc.

Meanwhile a good percentage of white mas killers get brought in alive unless they kill themselves, the police do not always kill then.

If you don't think there is a racial element to this you are either:
a) Completely ignorant of the issue
b) a bigoted piece of **** trying to excuse racially motivated murder by people who conveniently happen to protect you


It is literally that simple. The onl way you can think differnetly is by ignoring the statistics and the complaints of literally tens of thousands of people of colour who live with being terrorised and brutalised by their various police forces daily.

The American police forces are corrupt, and brutal. Not only do they murder and terrorise black communities with impunity they have[URL="http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Police-domestic-violence-nearly-twice-average-rate-2536928.php"] twice the rate of domestic abuse compared to the rest of the community[/URL] and they get away with that, too because their colleagues are the ones who investigate it.

- - - Updated - - -

Not exactly on topic but close, but this is the one that stuck with me over the years. I remember reading both of these the same day during the Hurricane Katrina disaster and feeling equally pissed off by the shoddy reporting:

Yep, the media loves to demonise black people. Just look at the coverage of white mass killers/rapists 'oh how could they do something like that, he was such a nice young man' vs 'he was no angel, look at this photo of him in a hoodie!'.

[Denzark]

@ Anthrax - seriously - Police and Military shoot for centre of observed mass. ie the biggest area of the target. If his head pops round the corner, you aim for that. If his entire body, the centre of that. Do you know how hard it is to shoot the knee of a moving target? it is only snipers and Hollywood where that happens - especially with a handgun. You are more a danger to the public if you tried that nonsense.

That's not to say you couldn't deploy less-than-lethal methods, bean-bag shotguns, tasers etc. But Police always use minimum force. If they have guns against a knife that is minimum force. fist<baton<knife<gun. And Police don't carry knives.

@ York - I would be in favour of filming all Police interactions, for sure. I would even be in favour of dip testing the footage.

I am not however in favour of it being available to the general public as some sort of police porn. For a start, it is Sub-Judice material. It could be prejudicial to juries. It has witness protection implications - failing to protect witnesses can breach their article 2 Human rights - Right to life - for which in the UK the Chief Constable of a force is liable. It also breaches the privacy of people going about their normal daily lives- article 8 Human rights.

The fact you don't know this is the proof of why the footage should not be made available to amateurs - only held in case there was a requirement to consult it in an investigation.

- - - Updated - - -

The American police forces are corrupt, and brutal. Not only do they murder and terrorise black communities with impunity they have[URL="http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Police-domestic-violence-nearly-twice-average-rate-2536928.php"] twice the rate of domestic abuse compared to the rest of the community[/URL] and they get away with that, too because their colleagues are the ones who investigate it.

EG - to write off an entire section of society in the US - police forces - as corrupt and brutal - is as huge a piece of prejudice as if somebody did that to an ethnicity or a sex. Hideous prejudice. And lets assume your figures are correct- you have not attempted any sort of correlation to the increased stress the job puts you under - it doesn't excuse DV but it does explain to a degree. Had you even considered this, the first google entry shows the rate of PTSD is found in some countries to be a.) as high as military veterans returning from Iraq and b.) Higher than the general populace.


Maybe it is the pressure of being assumed automatically corrupt and brutal by someone who has no evidence or basis on which to do so except an extreme bias and a penchant for sensationalist liberal intelligentsia websites.

[Gotthammer]

But Police always use minimum force.

...

Vonderrick Myers, who was unarmed and not wanted for any crimes was shot 16 times by police [URL="http://m.dailykos.com/story/2014/10/10/1335651/-Why-does-the-St-Louis-PD-keep-changing-their-story-about-the-murder-of-VonDerrit-Myers"]who have repeatedly changed their telling of the story[/URL].

Also the Ferguson PD have acted very very shady in regards to the shooting of Mike Brown, including outright lying about events, reports and witnesses.

[eldargal]

The British police use minimum force, American police do not:

In England and Wales, there are fewer than 7,000 trained firearms officers. Between April 1, 2011 and March 31, 2012, there firearms officers were called for 14,261 operations. They discharged their weapons five times. 50-four people have been shot dead by U.K. police since 1990, according to data compiled by the charity Inquest.

For contrast, the Bureau of Labour Statistics says there are around 780,000 police officers in the U.S., almost all of whom are armed. Nationally, the number of killings by police officers ruled justifiable each year runs into the hundreds. In 2012, 12 people were shot dead by police in New York City alone.

[URL="www.businessinsider.com/uk-firearms-police-to-trial-cameras-2014-1"]Source [/URL](with more sources).

I respect the British police, they de-escalate and in general try and respond to any racial biases and such even if it might take time. The US police are by and large militarised, white supremacist thugs and they have a deeply ingrained culture of cover up and croynism. The lawyer investigating the Ferguson shooting, for example, has in-laws who are police and has other very close ties to the people he is investigating.

[Eldar_Atog]

I respect the British police, they de-escalate and in general try and respond to any racial biases and such even if it might take time. The US police are by and large militarised, white supremacist thugs and they have a deeply ingrained culture of cover up and croynism. The lawyer investigating the Ferguson shooting, for example, has in-laws who are police and has other very close ties to the people he is investigating.

I don't know about the white supremacist part but the rest is true. If you are an US resident, you don't see a police officer as a symbol of safety. They are a symbol of authority and fear.

We have all had different experiences. In the area I grew up, racism in the police and government were just the status quo. The bullies you grew up with became the cops walking around armed to the teeth. Pity the poor woman that divorces a police officer. She is going to have at least 1 traffic stop a day even if she is a perfect driver.

I used to try to give them the benefit of the doubt but I just can't anymore. For me, it was after a rough traffic stop while riding with a friend. He had just been in a wreck and had to buy a new car last minute. Tribal tattoo down both sides, custom rims, tinted windows(street legal). Without even talking to us yet, the first cop called in 2 additional back up cars. When they approached the car, one of them came with gun drawn. You should have seen the look on their face when they saw we were late 20-ish white nerds. They didn't write a ticket or a warning. They just told my friend that his tint was too dark(which it wasn't). I'll let you make your own conclusions about that traffic stop. For me, a lot of misconceptions of cops as protectors fell away that night.

[Denzark]

Well that's a start. We've gone from 'the American Police forces are corrupt and brutal' to 'by and large militarised, white supremacist thugs'.

So 100% down to whatever percent is represented by 'by and large'.

It is still massively unfair to tar all of them with the same brush.

Bear in mind that in the US a myriad of agencies conduct law enforcement duties that we would recognise in the UK as 'policing'. The description of corrupt and brutal or militarised white supremacists does not apply to all of them. It simply doesn't. That is tosh. Or would we ask a rape victim who had seen her attacker found guilty to describe the specialist sexual assault officers who had worked diligently to bring the scumbag to justice, as brutal and corrupt?

If all US police are brutal and corrupt all them time by your UK standards, EG, that would mean you ought to back no conviction being safe in the US in accordance with those standards because in the UK when the defence can prove an investigator to have been corrupt in the course of their duties their evidence is immediately unsafe.

In effect you are saying no one should be convicted in the US ever.

[Erik Setzer]

you know, lets for a moment ignore the whole "maintain their own equipment" thing...because I really expect a cop to know how to repair a digital camera.....

there is just so much wrong with this whole "live streaming idea."

Its impractical, Dangerous to the police, dangerous to the public and ultimately would be like wearing a sign saying "cops are here (or not) come and get me" to anyone that felt the need to break the law

And yet, if the cops weren't in many cases more dangerous than criminals, no one would be recommending that.

The problem, to me, is that some officers *do* know how to work with the devices, and one officer has somehow had his personal camera "fail" repeatedly while he's engaged in harming a civilian. Once is a very, very convenient coincidence. Multiple times mean he's either disabling the device or destroying evidence to obstruct justice, or someone in the department is doing something to cover up abuse, which is also obstructing justice.

[DWest]

In effect you are saying no one should be convicted in the US ever.

No, we're saying that the police have breached the public trust so many times, that we operate on a "guilty until proven innocent" standard when dealing with them. That has nothing to do with letting criminals off the hook. And until you've lived here for some years and dealt with the way US police do things, I'd thank you to stop trying to extrapolate British statistics and methods onto the US.