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  1. #41
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    Let me get this straight. The police, the people who sign up to 'protect and serve the public', either should or do get treated in law, less well than criminals, in which you consider them guilty until proven innocent.

    You actually support this?

    Wow, America. Land of the Free.
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  2. #42

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    Let me get this straight. The police, the people who sign up to 'protect and serve the public', either should or do get treated in law, less well than criminals, in which you consider them guilty until proven innocent.
    I'm sure some sign up to protect and serve, probably most.

    Most =/= all.

    Some cops abuse their position. This is fact. Fact. Therefore, in any job where we give people large amounts of power there has to be equally high levels of accountability. Just saying 'Oh, I signed up to serve and protect' doesn't mean they did.

    You want the power? It comes with strings attached. You can't cope with those strings but still honestly want to make the world a better place? There are other ways. You don't need a badge to protect people. Volunteer, help at a sour kitchen, go back to school and train in nursing.

    Not all cops are good. As a result, those who are in the force should be absolutely clean at all times, and the force should have no issues about transparency. If they believe a homicide was justifiable, they should be prepared to defend themselves about it in court; that's how the law works.

    If they can't handle the thought that one day, they might be in front of a court on charges of killing a person during the line of their duties, then honestly? They're not cop material. Being a cop is hard. You take abuse from everyone you meet all day long. Don't like it? Quit. No-one said you had to be a cop. being acop means sucking down the world's poison and not complaining, because you know what? You stick your hand in a pirahna tank, you're gonna get bit. You can't be a cop and get mad at the fact the world's a horrible place, because the nature of the work means that's all you're going to see! It's like agreeing to be a chocolate cake taster and complaining when you get fat. People hate you for being a cop? Well, you're the one decided you wanted the power to boss people around - do you honestly think everyone is going to be okay with that? You might mean well, but this is the nature of the job you chose. It's thankless, and cruel, and will expose you to things you don't want to see, make people treat you appallingly.

    That's the job. If you're complaining about that, you were very naive when you signed up. Quit and get a job that makes you happy, but you don't get to complain if you stay.
    Last edited by YorkNecromancer; 10-31-2014 at 12:45 PM.
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  3. #43
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    None of what you have written is unreasonable York. High levels of accountability is reasonable.

    What is unreasonable is the attitude of many here making assumptions. Showing prejudice. 'You wanted the power to boss people around'. FFS what a condescending blind piece of prejudice. What a small minded thing to type. You've belittled yourself writing that York.

    Most police - even in the US I reckon - sign up to take the world's crap on their shoulders and deal with it. Most of them would find what you wrote acceptable and reasonable - in terms of accountability.

    But not assuming it is a power trip. Not assuming they are all brutal, corrupt or white supremacists. What utter codswallop people are typing.

    And requiring Police to be judged in all circumstances, 'guilty until proven innocent', something DWest put forward, is also utter utter bollocks.

    But as I showed before York - your idea about filming everything and allowing the public to see it has very real legal difficulties which would jeopardise criminal investigations. So how qualified are you to comment on the challenges of modern law enforcement - what so you saw an episode of the Bill and now you are Endeavour Morse?
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  4. #44
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    Do you honestly believe that the police do not have a problem with race? I'm not saying individual police officers; I'm saying the police force as a whole.
    I think it’s more complicated than that. I don’t doubt that on at least some level, somewhere, race is an issue, but I think there are a lot more factors at play. Reducing it to a simple “police are racist” is oversimplifying things and causes you to ignore other aspects of the problem.

    [URL]http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/metropolitan-police-still-institutionally-racist-20-years-after-stephen-lawrence-murder-black-police-leaders-say-8581873.html[/URL]

    I don’t know about the UK, but in the US a lot of police departments have very strong affirmative action policies in an effort to try and recruit more ethnic minorities. The issue they have with recruitment, in my opinion, likely stems to discontent with the police force within said communities. Sixty years ago, that discontent was likely warranted. Now? The –perception- is there, but with the perception clouding public opinion it’s very difficult to tell if it’s genuinely warranted. I can’t tell you how many other issues everyone “knows” are true are complete bull****.
    In particular, there are something like 17,000 different police agencies in the USA. The misconduct of one does not necessarily tarnish them all.


    Anyways, the issue of race relations regarding the police in the US and UK is much more complicated than a single murder case and the racial issues of a police department. I don’t doubt that the murder case all of your links point to was influenced by race. That’s one murder case in one police department. If you’re saying that on its own is sufficient to claim that all police everywhere have race issues, then no, you haven’t done your homework.

    When you posted the links, prior to reading them I was expecting multiple case studies to back up detailed statistical evidence that police disproportionately target blacks. I've seen plenty of evidence along those lines, and I even agree with some of those conclusions. Instead, you posted five or six articles all about the same single case and the involved police department with some offhanded mention of statistics. I’ll buy the argument that the metro police may have a race issue. Now look a little bigger. What are some larger scale trends that cover multiple departments over multiple countries? That’s the next step.

    Everything I have ever read, seen, or heard about the police leads me to believe that they are generally good people given a very difficult job to do, which - for a number of highly complex reasons, some cultural, some institutional, some historical - leads them to be unfairly prejudiced against people of colour, and black males in particular. I have family in the police. I have friends who worked with them. I read a lot.
    I know a lot of officers. In fact, my crossfit gym is owned by a group of police officers.

    What I will say from being able to hear both sides of the story, is that this is not a one-sided problem. Have you ever heard the phrase “perception is reality”? There are very large portions of the population that perceive the police to be corrupt and racist. It doesn’t matter if it’s true or not. It certainly was at some time, a couple generations ago. It may still be true in a few places. But the perception is still there, so even if it isn’t true, it’s irrelevant. The parties that view the police as corrupt and racist will act very aggressively towards the police.

    Recently I saw a letter from a police officer in response to Ferguson in the newspaper. He didn’t say anything about Ferguson itself, but spoke about the police relationship with the community. He gave a few examples. In one, he pulled over a vehicle with heavily tinted windows (it’s illegal to tint the front windows on a car). The driver turned out to be black, and began cussing out the officer for being racist. The officer just pointed out that it was at night and due to the tinted windows it was impossible for him to see the driver at all, let alone identify their ethnicity.

    As much as you can guarantee that there is some racism in police departments out there, I can guarantee that cultural mistrust of authority has caused as many problems in recent years as aforementioned racism.

    You want to work towards solving the problem? Then accept that in addition to the police accepting more accountability, the public also has to treat police officers with respect and a degree of trust. Not complete trust, hence the accountability, but when you post something about how the police are racist because of some set of events that maybe possibly theoretically have been influenced by race, then you are not a part of the solution, you are a part of the problem.


    I have done my homework on this, DarkLink, no matter what you might want to think.

    Actually, you have no idea how much I appreciate this. Sometimes I feel like the only person on here to ever bother to at least try and back up what I’m saying with something resembling evidence. At least now you know how I feel when people on here talk about those crazy Americans and their guns. Every time Kirsten rebuts hours of research and typing with a “that’s not how it works DarkLink”, it makes me feel like someone is playing the world’s tiniest violin just for me.


    Really the American police depart has a very loose guidline on what means equal or lesser force and what it takes for their life to be at risk enough to use deadly force, I'll give a example of a couple news story's I saw last year that I can't find links to

    Oh, because unverifiable anecdotal evidence is always the best way to make an argument…


    Case 2 Germany I think) one man (can't remember his race) going through extremely violent psychosis with to large machetes chasing people and destroying shop fronts, police response 1 shot to the knee stoping the rampage without fatality and allowing the man to be apprehended and even treated for his paychosis

    Have you ever fired a handgun before? Have you ever fired one in combat? You realize that the vast majority of shots fired by police miss, and it’s not because they’re poorly trained. Sure, they’re not Navy SEALs, but hitting a small target under stressful circumstances is incredibly difficult. You do not aim to disable someone with a firearm. I guarantee you those police shot once, noticed that it was a lucky hit that disabled their target, and held further shots. That’s good trigger discipline, but it’s not some sort of magical secret sauce that everyone but American police officers have.


    Really the problem is american police officers aren't told to try everything to apprehend the suspect before moving to deadly force and get permission for deadly force from pretty much anything involving a potential weapon even if that weapons potential to do harm is minisqual
    You’ve obviously never seen the scene in Chronicles of Riddick where Riddick kills a guy with a teacup.

    EG - to write off an entire section of society in the US - police forces - as corrupt and brutal - is as huge a piece of prejudice as if somebody did that to an ethnicity or a sex.
    Don’t bother arguing with Eldargal. Americans are all sexist racist hatemongering pig-dogs in her eyes, and nothing will ever change that. Except for the blacks, the women, and/or the black women. They’re probably ok, unless they’re in league with the sexist racist hatemongering pig-dog Americans.

    Actually, funny story. A few weeks ago, I was hanging out at my crossfit gym waiting for the next class to start. The current class was working out, one of whom was an attractive girl. Halfway through their workout, a random black guy stops outside the bay door near where she is doing situps. I was on the other side of the gym and couldn’t hear what he was saying, but one of the other guys (an off-duty police officer) waiting for the class to start gets up and walks over to the black guy. Black guy leaves. Turns out the guy was standing there watching the girl work out, saying things like “oh, you go girl”. The officer told him to stop harassing her and to not come by again. He mentioned to me that he recognized the black guy as a drug addict.

    So, here’s the question. In Eldargal’s eyes, is the officer a good guy for calling the black guy out on being misogynistic, or is he racist for telling a black guy to leave and don’t come back? Is the black guy misogynistic, or just a victim of racist American cops? It’s like a magic 8-ball, who knows what’s going to pop up?

    If you are an US resident, you don't see a police officer as a symbol of safety. They are a symbol of authority and fear.
    I’m a US resident, and you’re full of ****. Though you do live in the South, so I guess it could be plausible there.

    I will say this, though. People refuse to accept responsibility for their actions. Police will pull over someone going twenty over the speed limit, and they’ll bull**** whatever they think can get them out of the ticket, and ***** about it when the officer tickets them anyways. Just an ******* police officer abusing his power, after all.

    Meanwhile, if you’re just polite and honest, police reciprocate. I’ve gotten a speeding ticket where I just admitted I wasn’t paying attention to how fast I was going, and the officer was visibly surprised when I was honest. The police officers I know will all vouch for that. People act ****ty, and then blame the police when they don’t get away with it.

    Referring back to the OP, the second story with that stupid white kid? That kid didn’t not get shot (double negative, I know) because he was white. He didn’t get shot because he was polite. He wasn’t waving the shotgun around, and when the police approached them he was casual and friendly. Since it’s not actually illegal to carry a firearm, there wasn’t a big fuss about it. Stupid white kid can keep going around freaking people out, and the officers didn’t use unnecessary force.

    Meanwhile, if you go out in public and start swinging a sword around, and freak out when the police arrive, that’s Darwin Award material right there. Now, depending on the exact circumstances it may or may not have been justified for the police to shoot him, but the –reason- was likely that they saw a guy swinging a sword around and got a little too trigger happy, as opposed to whipping out their guns when they saw he was black. I mean, you never know, maybe, but I find the former much more plausible.

    You want the power? It comes with strings attached.
    Those strings are getting called racist all the time, apparently.

    Not all cops are good. As a result, those who are in the force should be absolutely clean at all times, and the force should have no issues about transparency. If they believe a homicide was justifiable, they should be prepared to defend themselves about it in court; that's how the law works.
    Absolutely. But “accountability” is not the purpose of this thread. There’s a significant disconnect between the logical argument you’re making and the casual rhetoric you’re using. The logic isn’t bad, that there’s a discrepancy in the number of blacks arrested and the criminal rate of blacks relative to other ethnicities, and as you’ve mentioned there are a very complex set of reasons behind this.

    This thread isn’t about those reasons, nor about what could be done to fix them.

    You abandon your logical argument and jump straight to “cops are racist”. As much as you say you’re not claiming that cops are racist, that’s basically what you’re doing. I mean, your OP openly claimed that the cops shot the guy swinging around a sword in public because he was black. The trend in your posts is “this evidence here is why I feel that there is a race issue, therefore these cops are racist”.

    I’m not really even taking the opposite stance than you, nor is Denzark I don’t believe. Neither of us are saying that there isn’t possibly a race issue or some related problem. We’re saying that you should stop being judgmental and jumping to hasty conclusions on skimpy evidence.

    Let me be clear here: what I find so wrong about some of what you said is that in order for a society to have a peaceful, effective police force, there must be mutual trust between the police and the public. When you spread rhetoric such as what you have, you only add fuel to the fire. Do you think Ferguson would have been better with or without having half the town set on fire by rioters? A dirty liberal of all people should be able to pull out a few appropriate Martin Luther King Jr. or Ghandi quotes for a situation like this.
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  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkLink View Post

    Let me be clear here: what I find so wrong about some of what you said is that in order for a society to have a peaceful, effective police force, there must be mutual trust between the police and the public. When you spread rhetoric such as what you have, you only add fuel to the fire. Do you think Ferguson would have been better with or without having half the town set on fire by rioters? A dirty liberal of all people should be able to pull out a few appropriate Martin Luther King Jr. or Ghandi quotes for a situation like this.
    There is no trust between the people and the police because the police brutalise the people, primarily the people of colour. This isn't fuel on the fire, this is people trying to effect change to literally save lives while ignorant, privileged little white morons try and pretend there is no problem because that would mean acknowledging their own privilege. Trust is earnt, and the American police department have had decades of brutalising black people in particular to lose that trust.

    Don’t bother arguing with Eldargal. Americans are all sexist racist hatemongering pig-dogs in her eyes, and nothing will ever change that. Except for the blacks, the women, and/or the black women. They’re probably ok, unless they’re in league with the sexist racist hatemongering pig-dog Americans.
    It's funny for someone who says they appreciate arguing with facts you just 'don't argue with Eldargal' when the only person here who hasn't provided any facts is you. But then what can you expect from a libertarian, the ultimate in white middle class bull****.

    'Hear both sides' is white supremacist talk for 'lets ignore the opinions of the oppressed people who are routinely brutalised and murdered and listen to the excues given by the white police to their white gym buddy'.

    'Should black people be able to walk down the street without fear of being shot by a white cop for no reason? Let's hear both sides'
    Last edited by eldargal; 11-01-2014 at 04:01 AM.
    Ask not the EldarGal a question, for she will give you three answers, all of which are puns and terrifying to know. Back off man, I'm a feminist. Ia! Ia! Gloppal Snode!

  6. #46
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    nice racism Eldargal, classy and hypocritical as usual
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  7. #47

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    Racism is institutional and systemic hate. What black people in America put up with is racism, me dismissing the opinions of a ****witted white libertarian ****head is not.

    But you know, by all means make an issue which results in the oppression of millions of people of colour in the US alone about the feelings of some poor white ****boy.
    Ask not the EldarGal a question, for she will give you three answers, all of which are puns and terrifying to know. Back off man, I'm a feminist. Ia! Ia! Gloppal Snode!

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkLink View Post
    100% with Denzark on this one. I hope some of you never have jury duty. You'd walk in and see a cop across from a black family and decide to send that officer to jail before you even heard the charges.
    was waiting for the inevitable "**** white guys, they deserve everything they get"

    Wonder if I'll get abused for "not all white guys" or mentioning that the continual judging of an entire section of the community on the behavior of a minority within that demographic is a no go

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by eldargal View Post
    Racism is institutional and systemic hate. What black people in America put up with is racism, me dismissing the opinions of a ****witted white libertarian ****head is not.

    But you know, by all means make an issue which results in the oppression of millions of people of colour in the US alone about the feelings of some poor white ****boy.
    not what the UN states,,,but whatever

    actually their is no UN definition, But i would have thought judging anyone solely based on ethnicity and gender was abuse.
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  9. #49

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    Wonder if I'll get abused for "not all white guys" or mentioning that the continual judging of an entire section of the community on the behavior of a minority within that demographic is a no go
    The irony in this is breathtaking. Yes, it would be horrible for an entire section of the community to be judged on the behaviour of a minority, let's ask the murdered black boy who was killed because the police thought he was a thug thinks of that, shall we?
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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by eldargal View Post
    The irony in this is breathtaking. Yes, it would be horrible for an entire section of the community to be judged on the behaviour of a minority, let's ask the murdered black boy who was killed because the police thought he was a thug thinks of that, shall we?
    And the difference between you and the cop right now?
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