Old guy coming back - Some help understanding things.

[LostAlone]

I haven't played 40k in a pretty long time (mostly 3rd edition) so combing back now there's obviously been some changes - at least I hope they are changes and I haven't just been wrong for years.

Anyway, I was hoping you kind folks could help me understand a few things, both dealing with the RAW and with the why behind them. So, there have been a lot of changes to the game but oddly a lot of them aren't really changes just new USRs and army books and such and none of that I really have a problem with. But there are some things, the basic things really that I took for granted for years that have changed do have me a bit confused.

The first thing I noticed was blast weapons. Now, I could swear that back when I last played that you rolled to hit, then if you missed they scattered. I looked pretty hard and I don't really know for sure but it seems that now you don't roll to hit with blast weapons, just to scatter, is that right? I ask because that seems really REALLY weird from my point of view, especially with how common super heavy vehicles and super big guns are now, it feels some combination of busted over powered and really really nerfed. Weapons with small blasts it would seem are now much worse than before, with a much lower chance of getting multiple hits since you no longer get to place the template to your advantage, it just goes where it scatters. On the other hand large blasts seem to be a lot more powerful now, especially against vehicles - There's a good number of vehicles where you could reasonably roll a 12 on the scatter distance and still hit it with the template, and (again correct me if I'm wrong) no longer do you need to hit a vehicle with the hole in the template to get max strength. Is all of that correct? Are big template guns now really THAT much better than say a lascannon or multimelta at killing vehicles? Is this stuff a response to the arrival of hull points so that the game is now more about trading off hull points than just waiting for one of you to get a lucky hit?

Slightly more generally - I didn't look too hard in the book, but since I'm typing I may as well ask - How many saves can one unit take against each attack now? As I recall you used to only get to roll one save, and only one thing (Feel No Pain) screwed with that after the fact. I don't think that's really changes, but then when people talk about the game they list off like four or five different saves that a character might have and I just wanted to feel a bit better informed how it all interacts. Do you still only get to roll one type of save per incoming attack?

Thanks guys

[ElectricPaladin]

The first thing I noticed was blast weapons. Now, I could swear that back when I last played that you rolled to hit, then if you missed they scattered. I looked pretty hard and I don't really know for sure but it seems that now you don't roll to hit with blast weapons, just to scatter, is that right?

I can't speak to whether or not it's a good difference or a bad one, but yes, you just roll to see if it scatters, and if so, which direction and how much (ie. you usually roll the scatter dice and the 2d6 all together). However, it's important to note that you do subtract the unit's BS from the scatter distance.

Slightly more generally - I didn't look too hard in the book, but since I'm typing I may as well ask - How many saves can one unit take against each attack now? As I recall you used to only get to roll one save, and only one thing (Feel No Pain) screwed with that after the fact. I don't think that's really changes, but then when people talk about the game they list off like four or five different saves that a character might have and I just wanted to feel a bit better informed how it all interacts. Do you still only get to roll one type of save per incoming attack?

You get one save. Feel No Pain is not a save, so you still get that. But generally, yes, you get your cover save, your armor save, or your invulnerable save, and then get your FNP (if you've got it).

By the way, FNP is always 5+ now, unless the model has a rule that makes it better (extremely rare) or worse (slightly more common). Also, the only thing you can't take your FNP save against is anything that's causing Instant Death, either because it has that USR or because it's doubling you out. AP doesn't matter anymore.

The reason you're hearing people talk about making multiple saves is probably because rerollable saves are a bit too easy to come by. For example, it's not all that hard for me, with Militarum or Sororitas allies, to build a Blood Angels terminator squad with a 2+ armor or a 3+ invulnerable save - both of them rerollable - and 5+ FNP after the fact if I somehow manage to fail my save.

[Charistoph]

I can't speak to whether or not it's a good difference or a bad one, but yes, you just roll to see if it scatters, and if so, which direction and how much (ie. you usually roll the scatter dice and the 2d6 all together). However, it's important to note that you do subtract the unit's BS from the scatter distance.

Unless it's a Barrage firing indirectly, of course.

You get one save. Feel No Pain is not a save, so you still get that. But generally, yes, you get your cover save, your armor save, or your invulnerable save, and then get your FNP (if you've got it).

By the way, FNP is always 5+ now, unless the model has a rule that makes it better (extremely rare) or worse (slightly more common). Also, the only thing you can't take your FNP save against is anything that's causing Instant Death, either because it has that USR or because it's doubling you out. AP doesn't matter anymore.

The reason you're hearing people talk about making multiple saves is probably because rerollable saves are a bit too easy to come by. For example, it's not all that hard for me, with Militarum or Sororitas allies, to build a Blood Angels terminator squad with a 2+ armor or a 3+ invulnerable save - both of them rerollable - and 5+ FNP after the fact if I somehow manage to fail my save.

Pretty much, but Feel No Pain is a save, but not a Save (yeah it's confusing if you try to think it that way, but even GW words it like that). It can save a Wound after one of the Trinity Saves fail to Save it.

Then Necrons have their Reanimation Protocols which work after all that, too.

But that's pretty much it. Trinity (Cover, Armour, Invulnerable), then Feel No Pain, then Reanimation (though, Reanimation isn't a save of any kind, it just restores a model that has fallen).

[Katharon]

This might sound like I'm being an ***, but...just read the rulebook? If there is anything that really jars your mind a bit more than usual then feel free to post any concerns or questions you may have about it. I played back in 3rd as well and a lot has changed. You won't be able to gain a better understanding of how much until you read the actual rules and not if/ands/or buts from us on different ephemeral things.

Please post your opinion of the rulebook after you get done reading it. I'd like to know what another old 3rd ed player thinks.